On Alex Liang, a Singaporean who gave up his Singapore citizenship

BBC News ran a story on 2 Oct featuring twenty of their international readers explaining why they had renounced their citizenship from their respective birth nations.

Buried in the list was an Alex Liang, 37 who is now a proud British citizen:

“I was born and bred in Singapore but moved to the UK when I was 21 and eventually naturalised as a British citizen after seven years here – I am 37 today. I left Singapore because I had no faith in the government there. Singaporean males were discriminated against by the government because of the compulsory national service and many years of reservist obligations afterwards. That is compounded by the fact that the Singapore government is actively wooing skilled migrants to Singapore. Their “foreign talent” programme gives these migrants all kinds of advantages that locals are not entitled to. I gave two years and four months of my life to serve in the army and my reward is to be treated like a second-class citizen. I wasn’t prepared to fight the system, so I simply left and settled in the UK instead.”

Alex Liang, London

You know what?

Alex struck a chord in me with his comments on NS.

I am 33 now and I am very sick and tired of the stupid discriminatory NS system and ten additional “work year” (named such so that they can not count a year when you are not called back for in-camp training) reservist with additional IPPT/RT/IPT burdens.

Modern day slavery in Singapore
Modern day slavery in Singapore

I gave two and a half years of my life to full-time national service. I completed this in 2001. It has been 12 years since. Way passed ten years from my ORD date. I find it ridiculous that I still have to serve at least 4 more “work years” – likely near to my 40s before I can get discharged from this slavery system.

Forty years old… think about it. That is more than half of an average lifespan. An awfully long time to keep sacrificing for the nation.

In the mean time, I am subjected to silly school boy hair check at least once a year when I get called back for in-camp training. Not that I like keeping long hair, but I would at least like to have the option to make that decision myself instead of having MINDEF and SAF dictate that for me into my middle age. I am not a full-time soldier. I did not sign up for a career in the army. I was conscripted.

Not everybody like being soldiers or take well to regimentation. Two and a half years in the army was more than enough for me.

Not everybody is born fit and with a physique built to pass IPPT up to their 40s. There are some people who just cannot pass. In any case, my health and my fitness are my own choices in life which I prefer to take my own responsibility for. I hate having MINDEF and SAF dictate these for me.

I hate being sent warning letters each time I forget to notify MINDEF when I travel. I am not a criminal. My only crime was being born a Singaporean male.

I hate being sent a “birthday wish” SMS from MINDEF to remind me to take my IPPT or risk getting charged. Thank you. You are always the first to wish me happy birthday without fail each year and spoil my mood for the day.

I hate having to spend between 18 to 20 weekends a year doing RT/IPT when I could have better spent the time bonding with my son.

I hate constantly being reminded that MINDEF and SAF can charge me and send me to jail for stuff like failing to take my IPPT or failing to notify them when I travel. Like I mentioned earlier, I did not sign up for this. Being a soldier is only a part-time obligation, not a full-time job.

Google defines a slave as “a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.”

Does this definition reminds you of NS and reservist?

I am not as talented as Alex Liang to be able to get a ticket out of Singapore at such a young age.

I still love this country and my family, friends and work here more than the cons of NS discrimination.

Nonetheless, if I ever choose to migrate out of Singapore. MINDEF and SAF are highly responsible.

Seriously, it is time to review the whole NS and reservist system. 

7 Oct 2013 Update: Thanks for reading, commenting and sharing this post. I wrote another blog post to clarify my stand on the whole NS debate.

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430 thoughts on “On Alex Liang, a Singaporean who gave up his Singapore citizenship”

  1. I don’t think MINDEF and SAF should responsible for your migration — on the broader perspective, blame it on other countries instead?

    1. Why are the other countries so much bigger than us? Why are they so much stronger than us? — This would constitute why we need almost half the Singaporean population to serve army for more than a quarter of their lives.

    2. Why is Singapore so well-situated in a location without natural disasters? Why is Singapore so strategically located that so many ships want to stopover here?
    — This would constitute why so many countries are always, at every minute and every second, want to takeover this piece of land to boost their imports and exports. Besides, without natural disasters, this would be a haven for any country to build its city in. At the current state when Singapore has developed to such a hub, you think the other countries are contented with watching us grow? Once our defense is down, look who’s gonna arrive and take our homeland away first.

    With these in mind, Singapore cannot stop boosting its defence capabilities, just to keep on par with other countries and protect ourselves and our families and friends. While I am not a die-hard PAP/government fan, I fully agree with the decision to make NS compulsory.

    Would you rather cut your hair every year, or would you rather succumb your family and friends to foreign invasions?

    Would you rather have MINDEF dictate your life, or let a big power dictate the lives of all Singaporeans?

    I’m sure your knowledge of our history with Malaysia, the UK and Japan should be enough to discern what your priorities should be. Well, you can always choose to escape.. to the lands of those who are vying your position and vacancy in this country.

  2. @janice. MINDEF IB spotted. Stop sprouting bullshit about national defense lah. If so important, ask FTs and women to serve too loh….. why only pick on sg males? Why must a small group of sg born males make all the sacrifices when in the future majority of our population will be foreigners who did not and won’t have to serve NS. Why? Fair or not?

  3. Janice: By your name, I am assuming you are a female? I think you are right about compulsory NS and how important it is to Singapore. In fact, we should go further an propose that everyone living in Singapore should have a part to play to protect our vulnerable country. Why just let a small portion of Singapore born male enjoy the honour of serving NS and doing reservist for a quarter of their lives? Following your logic, we should extend this wonderful privilege to all women in Singapore as well as all foreigners who want to come and live and work here. It is so important right? Everyone should part his or her part. It is only fair. You should be the first one to volunteer for this. 🙂

  4. I think the thing most guys have with NS is less of having to actually do it, but rather the inequality of it all – the flood of foreigners being let in and given a free ride on home ground without contributing to this cost of national defence borne by male Singaporeans.

    Once upon a time, when the domestic labour market was protected for locals, at least all the guys started out on an equal footing (well, exclude the occasional politician’s son who managed to end up in a NS vocation which was actually related to his real world job later in life). People grumbled about NS but I think nobody got really angry about it. These days, when any Tom Dick and Harry is let in to compete in the domestic labour market, and male Singaporeans are effectively handicapped – first by the 2/2.5 years spent in full time NS and then thereafter by the annual ICTs.

  5. God forbids, should there be a war or an invasion but to put the whole “NS” dialogue in prospective; Will Singaporeans be ready to fight & defend their country ???. I don’t think so, unless their maids are with them to assist. Honestly, in this day & age the concept of warfare is all based on “forward intelligence” and combat is ” Engaging the enemy without seeing the enemy in the eye” . Singapore has to adopt a “pre-empt” combative system, an offensive methodology rather then a defensive system. The dense build up terrain of Singapore will not cope with the carnage should e.g.; bombs be dropped on her.

    2 years ago, while visiting Singapore, I was invited to a passing out parade & after seeing the ludicrous amusement, I told myself, “these lot will never be able to exercise what military expects of them”. I draw a conclusion that Singaporeans will never be physically nor psychologically competent to engage in any conflict.

    Will foreigners defend Singapore, even “if” NS is introduced, I don’t think so.
    I served the NS, my father was an expat and I was born in Singapore, so I got conscripted. This was 40 years ago & even at that time, NS was just a big boys scout camp, nobody has a sense of “civic pride”, we got away with total mischief, just awaiting the 21/2 years to time out.

    Nowadays, with information on your fingertips, & a lot of Singaporeans having properties in foreign countries, there will be a mass exodus, should ill befall.

    However in clear thoughts, Singapore is a business hub, not a warring state, she is secular and has aligned herself with the mights of US, CHINA & RUSSIA. Singapore’s foreign policy is tranquillize in all general aspects and therefore she will be always safe from conflict. The only conflict that will eventuate will be “Home Grown”, a revolt, perhaps a political unrest or Home Grown Terror. The un-vetted influx of foreigners will pose a threat someday, foreigners are vocal, independent in their thoughts and have an “Objective Mind” as supposed to Singaporeans who are very “Subjective” in their approach due to the indoctrination by the ruling government.
    Im my view, I believe that local Singaporeans can & could be easily influenced by these foreigners to act in ways which may well constitute a detriment to people & property of Singapore.

  6. Thanks for expressing in words what I feel. I got really angry reading this and thinking about how unfair the whole system is. Yes we complain and grumble when serving full time NS but we still all finish it. The real anger is when we join workforce which is not level field for everyone. We are two years behind plus handicapped with endless ICT and RT. It is the unfairness of the whole thing that make us angry.

  7. This is so sad. I am 34 this year and still serving reservist. I feel you bro. I also can’t pass ippt and doing rt now. 20 sessions! if i can pass why would i not want to? i have a family with two young kids and working in a demanding sales job that require me to work a lot of OT to chase numbers to feed my family. Last year i miss some of the rt and got charged. No compassion showed despite me explaining my circumstances and how difficult and demanding it is for us to meet reservist and rt callups in current economic situation. my foreigner and female colleagues don’t have to worry about all these unfair disruptions. I am really up to my neck with the torture from saf. my wife and female boss also don’t understand. keep nagging on why i so beh kan keep having to go back camp. life as a singapore born male stinks!

  8. Yes, I think everyone has a part in national defence. I’ve been participating in such initiatives too, but like you, my health isn’t in the best condition to allow my participation in the army. Nonetheless, I do so agree with you that guys should not be the only one responsible for our country. 🙂

    And yes, I lament the lag of the same criteria for foreign immigrants. I strongly believe that new immigrants should go through any as well. If not, why take up a citizenship when you’re not committed to being loyal?

    But I still think that this shouldn’t discount the fact that protecting Singapore is the way to go. And leaving the country, is just a weak way of escaping the responsibility.

  9. @FT Dua Kee: Since ancient times during warfare, it has been men who have been fighting wars. Could be due to natural physiological advantage, and also to protect women who are the ones able to reproduce and ensure survival of the race and species. I would not ask FT to do NS as they will then have knowledge of our defense systems.

    @CSM Lee: Agree with you on the unfairness. However I guess we are paid more in comparison when working outside.

    @rytt: We men have ICT, women have maternity that puts them back on path of promotion also. Take it easy..

  10. @Leonard Another SAF IB spotted. Your logics are all pathetically flawed.

    1. Women’s duties to reproduce only? Thanks for bringing us backward to ancient civilization.
    2. FT should not serve NS because they will have knowledge of our defense systems? Then you either tax them heavily or pay the Singapore men a fairer wage to level the playing field.
    3. Singaporeans men paid more in the working world? Seriously get your facts right before sprouting such bullshit. What about the two years of vacuum wasted serving?
    4. Women put back by maternity? What about the dua kee MALE FTs?

  11. @FT Dua Kee: So maybe you think it’s very fair and definitely impartial to conclude that every person who does not agree with you, is a MINDEF IB? Hahaha talking about “pathetically flawed logics”. #justsaying

  12. While acknowledging that there is more to be done by the government to close the gap between our Singaporean NS-serving men and foreigners, Singaporeans should really start seeing a need to doing their part for the country that has seen to a safe and conducive environment for their upbringing till conscription age (variable to each individual). The current legislation may not be perfect but the idea behind it is important. It is normal and human to be disgruntled with the unfairness and unhappiness of the situation, but it is important to recognize that NS is necessary due to Singapore’s geographical location etc. etc. And when there is such a need, there will always have to be men who step up and make a sacrifice. And at the end of the day, if you see no convincing reason for the need to serve, then at least do it for your family and loved ones residing in Singapore. You can always leave Singapore after your 2 years of compulsory service, if that is a strong enough incentive to immigrate.

  13. I have the same frustrations too, having to manage my work and my family. 10 IPTs then 8 RTs. I have never passed NAPFA and IPPT, not that I do not want to pass them. I just can’t pass, even when I trained hard during my NS years. What makes them think that when I can’t pass IPPT in my prime, I will be able to pass it when I am over 30 years old?? A waste of time!! Many times I considered migrating too but I am just an ordinary person. 😦

  14. Just from another perspective, Singapore is a small country and i feel that NS should be made compulsory. Even the men in NS have different benefits; I heard from some of my NS friends if you declare you’re gay or something you won’t need to go to the fields? Anyway, the point is, just treat it as an exercise, even though its rigorous and all. Think about all the athletes, they have a positive mindset. Even so, I have to agree with the post up there that Singapore is being really unfair to its citizens. Singapore keeps taking in foreign talents, but how many of them are actually “talents” that Singapore need, that can actually make noticeable contributions to our society? And how many of this “talents” are just here so that they can take away so much more benefits that the Singapore government offers to them instead of its own citizens?

    Talk about equality but I think that’s just ridiculous. If they are really talents, benefits can be given according to the talents they have. The government may have implemented policies to stop this trend now but isn’t it a little too late? Besides, if they want equality, why not let majority of the foreign talent men to serve NS too, if they are planning to stay in the long-term, I don’t see how being a “talent” refuse their bodies on the physical sector. If they are so talented as they claim, prove it that they can even do NS too instead of just blabbering.

  15. It is not economically viable to make foreigners serve NS in the same capacity as our citizens do. After all, they do not even a remote incentive to do so, and would only serve to dampen our country’s appeal as an investment hub. There should be other ways to make foreigners ‘serve’ or to ‘penalize’ foreigners who would like to be citizens but not serve NS, but the solution seems to be quite elusive to the ministers and other officials at the moment. But making foreigners, ‘ruff and tuff’ it out with our boys, while being a popular decision, makes no economic sense and may spell certain doom to our economy.

  16. Hey Alvin, when I read your original article, I was actually upset that you felt that NS discriminates against SG males (although I know that is the prevailing feeling in SG) and the various other gripes (which I have to say really depends on each person and is therefore subjective) which seemed to me that you place personal comfort over national issues.

    Your later clarification in your first comment to Janice leads me to conclude that it is mainly the current perceived inequality with some people having to sacrifice to defend the rest who do not, and it is compounded by the feeling that alot of those who do not serve, parachute into the system for benefits.

    Am I reading you right?

  17. @janice

    don’t be a hypocrite. Stop carrying balls here. You’ve not served and will never need to. Initiatives which you participate doesn’t come close to what guys goes through during NS and much worst, their reservist throughout till 40s or even worst 50s (for officers). And I even doubt you’ve any idea at all what guys have to sacrifice 2/3 of their average lifespan just for this conscription.

  18. @Leonard Woman have maternity??HAHA how about those that doesnt wan to get married or doesnt wan to have children??then WHAT maternity they have???nowadays MAJORITY of the woman are workaholics or those that doesnt wan to get married pls..and maybe the govt should implement a rule that male foreigners staying for a fixed duration HAVE to serve NS as well so that they will be equality what…

  19. Serving ns is fine, but the pay is pathetic and i could have use the 2 years to earn money for my education. With the pathetic pay, after i ord, i barely have half of my fees for education. Really pathetic.

  20. @Guy From the perspective of a woman in general, I don’t think I should face your insults such as “carrying balls” nor “hypocrite”.

    Yes. I admit that none of my initiative can ever be compared. My husband is also failing every year’s IPPT, and I feel very bad that I cannot ever share these woes of his. Am I a hypocrite like this?

    Everyone’s entitled to their comments, and I do so welcome constructive arguments. Alvin, @Shaun Nico, @rytt and @silverelf are very good examples. By having constructive discussions, I got to learn what Alvin is more concerned about — which turns out to be what I’m concerned about as well.

    And now, while talking about how guys are being “picked on”, please take a mirror and look at what you have commented. How about me, as a girl, being “picked on” by you as well, just because I did not go through the same ordeal? Being called a “hypocrite” that “carries balls” — do you tell off your wife, your girlfriend, or your mom in such a way? I am greatly disappointed, and I hope this does not happen to the people in your life. =)

  21. Bravo. I only served National Service cause I was born in Singapore and held a Singapore passport. My parents are Japanese, and I was brought up in Japan. I didn’t know what the hell I was doing serving the army in Singapore. Well, I’ve finished the army and am completing my University in England (sucks when half the class is younger than you), and am in the process of getting Japanese citizenship again.

    Singapore is a fun place to visit, but not a fun place to live in.

  22. Serving NS is fine but i think a better treatment should be given to Singapore to offset this issue. Everything is fine IPPT, ICT etc…to me, i will do anything for my country but first to make your citizen do all these, you(GOV) first must them feel worth it. i want to protect my country that is worth protecting. I am doing it for law now (most SG too) and not patriot from my heart. I am already at “war” with FT and competing with FT in order to “survive”. My children face these issues too in future.. my generations after generation.

  23. It looks like Singapore is a place of more questions than answers. Living in the system and going for constant RT, even as a young person, I can feel the meaninglessness of RT. If people really wanted to keep fit, it is their own prerogative. Instead of baiting people with 100, 200 dollars, make it so that the monetary rewards is something the govt. wants you to have. Even if you fail IPPT, SAF should still give you 200 dollars in terms of gym credit. Since SAF wants a fit lifestyle for you, they should do more realistic things that are geared towards accommodating Singaporeans instead of roping people in for “punishment”. If people going thru RT20 can pass IPPT by the end of RT20, then the system works. Right now it does not work at all because this is never the case. Personally I have to gym by my own initiative to pass what I failed.

    NS becomes meaningless after ORD, and even more so in ICT. I doubt that a army of conscripts can save Singapore when faced with modern warfare. Limited training will not help.

  24. I think ns is a joke la! When i went back to reservist, all the solider are like old man, do you really think we have the capability to go for war? and who the fug want take over singapore? no nature resources, one bomb everything bye bye, waste time attacking this stupid small island. face the fact. though i dun mind serving ns and reservist, but i hope our gov can better take care of us. We def but u treat us like shit. In-fact after i grad from uni, my salary is not even competitive with woman and FT. Sad but true. Once again, we dont mind serving and defense our nation. Just treat us fair.

  25. very brave of you to post this Alvin!

    I think many “singaporean sons” feel the same way as you do.

    my biggest gripe with it is how it has not been updated over the years. wars will not won by guerrilla fighting in the street. this is not 1940 for gods sake. it will be a war of technology, one bomb, a few planes and thats it. do we even have the technology to stop long range misfiles? detect stealth bombers? i doubt it lol.

    i would cut the budget on all the unnecessary enslaved manpower and allocate it to defense / technological research. though thats not going to help much. you cant really catch up. at the end u might as well just have a strong ally and focus on your economy, so they want to be your strong ally.

    and you don’t need all Singaporean males to defend it. its a huge consumption and misallocation of resources. from an economic perspective its a complete tragedy.

    and then the rationale, “defending our family/homes”.

    say our country really gets invaded old school way. we will be at the front defending all the indians and chinese immigrants? Or would we rather stay and defend our families till our last breath. singaporeans and brained washed pretty hard to the extent of agreeing with illogical sentiments.

  26. has MINDEF ever fought a war? no?
    doesn’t that mean then, that all that effort constitutes to NOTHING? we’ve been paying millions of dollars with NOTHING to show for.

    its really laughable when people are so proud that they’ve served the nation, like as if because of them we’ve progressed as a nation. for all of you who’ve sweat, gave blood and/or tears, what is the end result of all your efforts?

    NOTHING!
    so why work so hard for? work also at the end of the day produce nothing, don’t work also produce nothing. might as well be smart and just do nothing eh?

  27. When we talk about National Service, it does not have to be of combat nature. When we talk about equality in our country, I strongly believe that women can play a part in national service as well. They can be attached to the healthcare sectors (such as nurse), or even non-profit organisation to learn skills that could be vital in the event of emergency. Just imagine that women have been attached to hospitals for training as nurse during their NS days. They learnt important skills such as CPR or bandaging skills etc. When they happened to see someone injured or in danger during peace time, they can immediately help instead of waiting for the ambulance to come.

    In this small country, everyone is important, regardless of gender. We build Singapore and we Protect it for generations to come. So everyone (Males and females. Not just males) should be involved with National service. #justmyopinion

  28. @silverelf

    You are right to point out that much of my displeasure stems from the unfairness of the whole NS/ICT/IPPT/RT/IPT system.

    However, I won’t say I was not thinking of my own personal comfort and interest as well. What is wrong with that? Nation before self? Come on… let’s get real.

    If you found a loaf of bread during a famine and you know your wife and son as well as the soldiers defending your land are starving to death, would you give the bread to the soldiers because you believe in nation before self? Let yourself, your wife and son starve to death because the nation is more important? Seriously?

    I can be altruistic and giving up to a certain level. At some stage, you have to fend for yourself, your family and your loved ones. Unless you are an extraordinary martyr of sort like Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela, which I am not.

    Even our Ministers justified their high salaries with the same self-serving logic. Why can’t I do the same as an ordinary Singaporean?

    I do not blame foreigners for coming in and compete with us for jobs. In fact, I applaud and respect them for having the courage to seize the opportunity when they see it. Everyone is in search of a better life (or “own personal self comfort” in your words) and if I were in their shoes, I would have done the same. Our government policies allow it to be this way.

    I blame our system, not the people.

  29. I feel you. Years after serving NS, I wake up in cold sweat of nightmares, dreaming that I AWOL. My friends tell me they have the same nightmares. I don’t want the torture of reservist. I could have stayed on in New York where I was studying, but I came back because I love Singapore. I just wish they can stop calling me back for reservist. I already gave them the best of my 2.5 years of youth. What else do they want?

  30. Totally, I also agree that the main issue is with the system because if I were in the position of the FTs, I would probably do the exact same thing if given a chance. Anyone who says they would rather give up a chance of better pay overseas either has strong ties to the family or they are lying.

    To each their own, their views on various issues can hardly have one right answer.

  31. On reading comments from clowns like Janice …. she has certainly read history and by her argument, the useless women of Singapore should serve NS too.
    if this is not done, then NS is a bias slavery system

  32. @Alan Lau: YA agree! Your mother grandmother sisters all should serve NS too.

    I guess the angst is on the job opportunities and advancement opportunities by FT. This was and never should be about sg women vs men serving NS.

    Just have to work harder.

  33. This comment has been edited upon request from Alex Liang:

    There have been allegations made recently on Alvinology regarding me getting into trouble during NS by breaking the law and hating NS/Singapore as a result of that. I want to categorically say that this is a completely baseless allegation and is completely untrue. This person who made the allegation couldn’t state when/how this crime supposedly happened, what unit it happened in, where it happened, who was involved, what was the outcome or any of the details of the case. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to try to paint me out to be some kind of vindictive and angry person who has a personal vendetta against NS or Singapore.

    I served 2 years 4 months of NS from 1995 – 1997: I learnt to keep my head down, mouth shut and stay out of trouble whilst in NS. I would never become vindictive or angry as a result of anything that I had to endure or put up with in life – that’s not the person I am. Perhaps it’s my stance of choosing to take the path of least resistance – it’s easier to keep your head down and not speak up then to try to challenge the SAF; and it was easier for me to leave Singapore than to try to take on the PAP.

    That BBC interview was in fact abridged as I talked about a range of other issues that made me want to live in the UK. I talked about my love of London amongst other things and sadly all that didn’t make the final edit and it was focused on national service instead – that was the editor’s decision, not mine. I don’t get to tell the BBC editor what to put into the final article.

    The outspoken nature of my blog has made me a target for many in Singapore who see me as a quitter, traitor and turncoat – I never expected everyone to agree with everything I have to say – but as long as I can stimulate a healthy debate on the issues discussed, then I feel I have achieved my goal as a blogger. The name calling I can put up with, the smearing however, crosses the line into slander and ironically, is a criminal offence. Yup, the person accusing me of being a criminal is in fact breaking the law himself in making those allegation. If you have proof or evidence, bring it on – otherwise don’t make baseless accusations. #libel

    This is a vindictive smear campaign to try to discredit me and tarnish my reputation by someone who doesn’t like what I said. I am more than happy to talk to anyone who disagrees with me on any issue I blog about – but I am disgusted by those who resort to such underhand means when they don’t like what I say. I am open and honest on my blog (I use my real name and often post photographs of myself) – so it is just impossible to try to fight people who try to smear me anonymously, on forums and on Alvin’s blog. I thank Alvin for giving me the opportunity to clear the air on this.

    http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/a-red-herring-my-sex-life.html

  34. This comment has been edited upon request from Alex Liang:

    There have been allegations made recently on Alvinology regarding me getting into trouble during NS by breaking the law and hating NS/Singapore as a result of that. I want to categorically say that this is a completely baseless allegation and is completely untrue. This person who made the allegation couldn’t state when/how this crime supposedly happened, what unit it happened in, where it happened, who was involved, what was the outcome or any of the details of the case. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to try to paint me out to be some kind of vindictive and angry person who has a personal vendetta against NS or Singapore.

    I served 2 years 4 months of NS from 1995 – 1997: I learnt to keep my head down, mouth shut and stay out of trouble whilst in NS. I would never become vindictive or angry as a result of anything that I had to endure or put up with in life – that’s not the person I am. Perhaps it’s my stance of choosing to take the path of least resistance – it’s easier to keep your head down and not speak up then to try to challenge the SAF; and it was easier for me to leave Singapore than to try to take on the PAP.

    That BBC interview was in fact abridged as I talked about a range of other issues that made me want to live in the UK. I talked about my love of London amongst other things and sadly all that didn’t make the final edit and it was focused on national service instead – that was the editor’s decision, not mine. I don’t get to tell the BBC editor what to put into the final article.

    The outspoken nature of my blog has made me a target for many in Singapore who see me as a quitter, traitor and turncoat – I never expected everyone to agree with everything I have to say – but as long as I can stimulate a healthy debate on the issues discussed, then I feel I have achieved my goal as a blogger. The name calling I can put up with, the smearing however, crosses the line into slander and ironically, is a criminal offence. Yup, the person accusing me of being a criminal is in fact breaking the law himself in making those allegation. If you have proof or evidence, bring it on – otherwise don’t make baseless accusations. #libel

    This is a vindictive smear campaign to try to discredit me and tarnish my reputation by someone who doesn’t like what I said. I am more than happy to talk to anyone who disagrees with me on any issue I blog about – but I am disgusted by those who resort to such underhand means when they don’t like what I say. I am open and honest on my blog (I use my real name and often post photographs of myself) – so it is just impossible to try to fight people who try to smear me anonymously, on forums and on Alvin’s blog. I thank Alvin for giving me the opportunity to clear the air on this.

    http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/a-red-herring-my-sex-life.html

  35. Talk cok la government. Seriously I don’t mind to be in NS and protect country. Jibye country earn so much from casino,singapore pool , COE cars. Taxes gst and also as a famous shipping port. And also the land & flats at skyrocketed prices. Singapore is really very rich! But how much do we get when we serve NS? $400 to $900 . $50 combat pay. Why is such low pay given when we are tasked with such an honourable 2 years of protection to SINGAPORE? When our fellow FT and female singaporean are out in the civilisation getting well-paid and also trying to climb up and be promoted. GOVERNMENT SHOULD INCREASE THE NS PAY! AT LEAST 1.5k ~2k. ( which is the very minimum what we earn outside already )

  36. Nothing is new here. What’s worst, either die during NS training or Missing rifle… I’m 17 and have not enlist into NS yet but i had heard all sorts of stories from my friends who have enlist into it. I agree with what most of you guys are thinking and how alex liang wrote about singapore government and NS. I know its a must for us to serve NS but I find it very unfair and a waste of time for singaporean guys to go back reservist after serving 2 years when we could all be doing the things we like be it continue studying, being full-time worker or whatsoever. Like i say above what’s worst, die during training or missing rifle. 1 Missing rifle and have to serve another 7 years in detention barrack. 7 years inside. No different from going jail right. 7 years is more than enough for singaporean guy to earn enough money be it whatever they want to do or start a family. I feel that the government here are really F*** up be it NS, work pay, taxes or whatsoever.

  37. WOMEN WHO WERE NEVER FORCED ARE BETTER OFF SHUTTING THEIR PIE-HOLE. IF YOU WERE EVER FORCED, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE TREATED LIKE A BLOODY SLAVE.

    NS is fcuking was de of time. All Singaporean males are disadvantaged:

    – economically,
    – financially,
    – socially,
    – educationally.

    Moreover the stupid ICTs, recallation of ippt, shooting, courses, etc are a total waste of time and unfair to those who serve. While the foreigners and females can go about their normal life without all these added burdens, we are forced to sacrifice all these while. This is totally unfair and unjust.

    If we fail our ippt, we have to waste 20 days and forced to go back for RT and waste even more time and bullshit. This Singapore gov think that they own us and they even want to dictate what we do. Forcing everyone to be fit is like dictating what position you must do when having sex.

    seriously, Singapore makes, if u all want to change this, please speak out and do some action! We have no choice but to serve, and we are serverely disadvantaged.

    Singapore is NOT

    democratic; we were forced to serve,

    Meritocracy; we are 2 years late, we lose out economically, financially, educationally, lack of experience.

    We lose out. And for those that say I’m being selfish or only think of ourselve, of course. Who will think and take care of us then?

    Fucking unfair

  38. Sympathy and empathy means nothing, words of comfort are just words after all.

    When the boys and men serving in the army join their voices against unfair treatment, we’re seen as bullies? Yet many people can join together to fight for the rights of homosexuals, women and anything except your NSFs and NSmen?

    I call bullshit.

    We suffer in silence because to open our mouths would be chargeable. The law prevents us from publicizing about our experiences when it ‘borders on slander’.

    Combatants suffer that much more torment than their service-side counterparts. I’ve been in both, I should know the pains of both. We are all equal in the amount of mistreatment and suspicion that we receive. We don’t need your pity. That does no good at all.

    Start asking the questions that we cannot ask.

  39. @janice if your body is weak. Keep your fingers off this comment. Maybe you shld start cutting your hair short and colour your hair black plus stop putting any make up as contribution for this “NS” thingy u mention on your post.
    Hmmmm let’s see.

  40. im a SGP born&bred chinese GUY, gotta take tis opportunity to compliment most of the comments made before me, even my younger brother who is in poly, is alr thinking about what SGP would be like for him in few yrs time, would he be able to afford a home, afford a WIFE,family, and what about his next generation, with high cost of living, stress lvl , so many FTs competing in the job sector, an mrt/bus seat, a rear-nice viewing seat at the cinemas,ETC.. would singapore still be singaporeans’ home in the years to come..??

    and for ppl like janice to comment ”constructively” with baseless qualification in this topic is astounding,, never once served ns at all, never experience it, still can comment like u know how it feels. ur husband served before..?? then i think he has rights to comment. not you.

    ns is already taking up the prime years of our youth, but its RT after ORD, that makes it even harder to accept. in other countries, its an honor to serve NS, down here, we have tons of women that are not proud of people who did/doing NS, or couldnt care less,..they ditch their BFs doing NS, female stompers that routinely target NS men, first ”they” treat us like boy scouts, then expects us to behave like ”soldiers/ guard of honor” then they ease their way into this post n comment threads being shared by like-minded man, whats next…. dayummmm its just a vicious cycle for SG MEN…

  41. Plain and simple. Look at Choice A and B below, which one will be replaced and be extinct first?
    A) SG male 2.5 years sacrificed. 2.5 years less salary. => 2.5 years less economic usefulness, 2.5 years delay to start a viable family
    B) FT male 2.5 years ahead => Settle down with a family 2.5 years earlier, 2.5 years more economic useful life

  42. I may not really agree with what the government is doing in other areas, but I do support national service. Although it is really unfair for us singaporean males due to the 2 year lag we suffer and the many more years of re service, when war time comes, I am sure everyone will appreciate the fact that we have an army around to fight for ourselves.

    As much as I hate to say this, SAF is still very much necessary. For those who want females to serve too, I have this to say: our birth rate is already so low. If women had to serve ns, who will give birth to our next generation? The government will resort to importing even more FTs to make up for the shortfall. Just my two cents.

  43. Janice, I will be enlisting next month. I would like to know if you support the pay scale of us NSmen during conscription?

    Is the measly hundreds of dollars we earn a good indicator of the responsibilities you presume that we have? And, if I don’t want to be burdened with reservist, is it not my right to migrate? Is my life fated simply because I’m born Singaporean?

  44. I have served in the Singapore Armed Forces and will be steadfast in my assertion that it is a wayang force. It is merely for show. It is not capable of fending off a full scale war. This is not because the soldiers are incapable(which most of them are), but because Singapore does not have the land mass(area) to fight a war. There is a common belief in the SAF, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power, we will stand for a maximum of 3 days. This is assuming most of the reserve force shows up upon activation. After 3 days, Singapore will fall unless our dear ally the US comes to our aid. We all know how well the UK defended us in WWII so I am not going to bank on that. If there is a fire in our backyard, we will not be the first to assist our friend whose backyard is burning.

    PS: Janice, you might want to think deeper before spreading propaganda that has been drilled into you from a young age. Serve to defend your family, your friends. Rubbish. Serve to wayang. This wayang is only good for people like you. Unfortunately, foreign powers are not run by people like you who would be deterred by wayang. If a foreign power wants to invade and take us, they will regardless of us having a massive wayang force or a tiny specialist army. We simply do not have the land area to sustain a total war.

  45. I gotta agree with what @recruit is saying. If his younger brother is in poly and he has already starting thinking bout all these what about people like me who’s in ITE nitec first year? by the time i finish my poly and go into NS, i’m already 25 years old and I won’t even have the enough income to get a family/home/whatsoever even in late 30’s. How to survive in singapore like that? even now i have to look for part-time cause my family is poor and serving NS the pay they give is also very low. How you expect us as singaporean male to survive in a system where taxes and gst are high and poor is very poor and the rich is very rich.

  46. THIS! THIS IS SO WHAT IM FEELING!!

    On another note, women should also need to be called in for NS. Why picked on the males? Its our country and women here are always asking for equality, what equality is it if they do not have compulsory NS? You know 2 years is a very long time imo, you could do so much during that time like studying and building on your career instead of wasting time on somethings thats not gonna even help you have a better life.

  47. Hi everyone, ask yourself this questions before commenting:
    Is Singapore SAFE? How many people live on street? Why don’t ask a stranger to use your computer?

    If you able to answer this question and still live with it. Please migrate 🙂

    See the correct exit please.

  48. Women put back by maternity means its fair to make it compulsory for all sg males to serve NS? Can you use your brain or get a reality check if all the sg females are really being put back by responsibilities of child birth. If they are then, YES, its compulsory for sg males to serve. People that didn’t really experience what we are going through please do not act as if you are all that and start to help with wasting our life in slavery.

  49. it is necessary to serve ns. regardless of whether we have the ability to defend the country is secondary. if we dun do it, nobody will.

    all citizens should serve ns. two years of our life is indeed precious, but its no big deal in the broader context of our entire career??? what does it cause you? two years worth of potential entry income or? to me, sportsmen lost out more, esp those who are really talented but have to give up all because of ns.
    it is everyones responsibility to one self and to his or her family to try and be healthy. eat less, work out whenever theres time… ippt standards are not over bearing or over demanding… it can be passed and maintained. i wonder for the many arm chair critics here, how much time can be spent doing simple workouts rather than spending time on the internet to complain incessantly on not to exercise… wats wrong with doing 20 sessions in a year? think again, is it really a lot??? u mean u cant even take out 20 sessions a year to exercise? stop finding excuses. u noe u r finding excuses.

    I served 2.4 hrs 13 years ago and still continue to serve my reservist. while I may not be the best when it comes to my soldiering duties, I do try my best to understand and perform what is required of me. after all nobody noes whether we are able to defend the country ultimately, but its a definite failire if everyone dun even wants to do it in the first place… taking aside whether I feel for the country or not, I noe that people I care for are all rooted here and will not have the ability to migrate overeseas etc. saf is created to provide protection in times of crisis and I will be here to serve if saf requires me so…

  50. Im a 27 year old Singaporean. Served my 2 years NS as a CPL and have just completed my 5th ICT. Although i always Chao Keng in camp. But i feel that at least as a Singaporean male, we got to know how to hold a rifle and be ready to protect our family. When got war. you think who will protect your family? The Angmos? FTs? war come they can go back their country. We only got here. Your HDB / car / saving all here what you want to do. You want FT to serve NS. you sure bo? During war may have “friendly” fire. We can only kao ourselves. or u rather hide under your mother skirt during war.

    And i also got charged for missing dateline for RT. But please lah. Keep blaming government. They give so many months to complete 20 RTs. cannot go or lazy to go? i admit i lazy thats why i kanna charged. But there are people with so many excuses. What unfair here unfair there. Be a man lah.

    Seriously, there are people here who claim they have nightmare of being AWOL just by serving 2.5 years of army. … … … … some words of advice. Grow some balls!

  51. @xtra09 please do not think what applies to you applies to everybody as well, not everyone has so much time and enthusiasm in serving NS as you. If you are so kin in doing those duties by sacrificing so much time where you can do so much more with your love one then please sign on by all means. Some parents just got no time to educate their child because of those responsibilities, that’s why so many young kids are so fked up nowadays.

  52. Even the government knows that serving NS is a joke and they can only force poor 18 year old kids who have no taste of what real money is to serve for a pathetic $480 while being a recruit and a miserable $950 for being a sergeant in the army. That’s the reason why they refuse to let you complete your studies before enlisting who would want to earn less than 1k when they can draw 2-3k as a fresh grad. The only people who want to sign on are those with no education or those who sign on as officers even then it’s just a simple career choice, do they seriously want to serve the country and ‘protect’ it only a fool would think that way. I’ve known warrant officers who can’t wait to leave the army, just that they need they money thus remaining in it.

    For those who say that you NS is needed try serving in the army when your peers and everyone there doesn’t give a damn about it and doesn’t even believe in it. Everyday you’re just going through the motion and you just can’t wait to get it over with. Why do you think everyone can’t wait for their ord. NS as a whole is just a big joke. When the war comes i wonder how many people would actually stay and fight i bet the mp can’t even compile the number of deserters.

    Try getting two years of your life being wasted away and you doing nothing but waiting for two years to be over, thinking of every single thing that you could do with your life. Army makes you stupid because you’re trained to listen and follow not to lead and people wonder why singaporeans are not creative.

  53. @Chaokengkia @xtra09: I am happy for Singapore there are heroes like you two. However, don’t assume and expect others to be as enthusiastic as you.

    @sktoh: What has Singapore being safe got to do with NS? You mean the army and police regulars are not the one keeping us safe? The government and our legal system have no part to play? What has toilet signs got to do with who should and should not serve NS? What is your logic here? I know you are trying to sound clever with your one-liners, but dude, no, you seem really dense.

  54. lol seriously most people doesn’t really give a fuck in serving NS, and i bet those mp with all those pretty words would probably be the first to flee from Singapore. The government is just trying to find cheap labour that got no choice but to give in to their tyranny. Charging people who does not obey is just the same as whipping slaves into their bidding.

  55. @Alvinology: maybe you dont really know what is happening in Singapore. How many Army regulars are there? The more regulars we have. The lesser people we have in the workforce. That is why you need a “Citizen” Army

  56. xtra09 another brain-washed dog detected. Wonder if you are our generation or not. Or just a old man?

  57. NS is, in my opinion, one of the most intelligent systems devised by our government. It can bring out extreme sides of all kinds of people.

    Look at it this way, people get forced away from their loved ones to serve their country for 2 years, subsequently with added reservist years.

    During the two years, all kinds of things could happen. One could get fitter, learn to be an obedient slave that follows orders, make new friends, get injured permanently, spend much time doing work that is absolutely pointless, wasting time doing absolutely nothing due to being stuck in camp, etc.

    As someone who is currently ‘serving’ this nation, I can only express my utmost contempt for this system.

    Let us take a closer look at what kind of paychecks, for one, that the higher brasses in our Singapore army is drawing. From a captain, say company OC, his paycheck would range around $4k- $6k. At a lieutenant colonel, CO level, his paycheck would range from $6k – $10k. One could only guess what kind of cash anything above that is drawing.
    We would not be talking about job scoop here, for, well, those upper brasses would Doubtlessly be very busy Defending this nation from External Threats. Doubtlessly the cash drawn from Our taxes to pay these Great Generals that NeveR fought a War is well spent. They are, all in all, supposed to be making a living like the rest of us, feeding their families and giving their time for this country.

    Speaking of feeding people, the cookhouse in every camp is doing a very good job at that. Why, they have to feed all the people in the camp! Of course they have to be efficient! Surely it is well warranted that much extra food is to be catered to ensure that everyone is well fed. Extras might be served as well.
    During my stay at Resort World Tekong, I personally witnessed a case in which a company mate bit a cockroach in half during his dinner. Poor fella, vomited his whole stomach out and was quite traumatized of cookhouse food afterwards. Nothing too uncommon, happens all the time in other places. As for food uneaten, into the bin they go. Quite a Ton of that too. Imagine all the use for such wastage. The starving people of 3rd world countries for one. Tax payers money well spent.

    Money, that is quite a touchy topic. Looking at the paychecks all NSFs are drawing, it seems that we “men” are being paid like maids, closely followed by our sergeants and officers, those highly paid bangala workers that are employed to dominate the maids. What are we doing in camp? Cheap and pointless labor, all in the name of serving our dear nation(Government).
    A prime example would be a friend of mine that fell off a 5-tonner. He is PES E. He had malfunction organs. Why did he have to serve? He aspired to be a chef. He had a goal in life. The fall shattered his left knee. It is alright. Medical technology is awesome these days. He would be up and walking Just as normal in about a year’s time, no doubt.

    For the sake of this nation, we are made to serve. A cheap word to use. Serve. A cheap and manipulative word to deceive those that do not peer too deeply into the depths.

    A better word would be slave. We are enslaved by this nation the moment we are conscripted. To provide an excuse to leech more money off it’s citizens to build this Fine nation, to line the government, ahem, ministers, pockets.

    If I were to make a suggestion, I would say use the money, a ridiculous amount by all estimates, from our pathetic attempts to create an army of unwilling ‘soldiers’ to hire a selective group of agents that ARE prepared to give their time and efforts for a country that is as likely to be attacked by a major world power as it is for a live volcano to sprout out right between us and Malaysia.

    The army has it’s merits. It would be unfair to not give it that much. It could bring out the best in some men, to bring out the good in them, or it could bring out the bad. It could straighten a man which is clueless about life out, to give him an opportunity to prove himself, or it could ruin one, by denying the opportunities needed for one to go far in life, forever lost at the expense of helplessness, of being unable to fight the system.

    A good deed would never be able to cross out a bad one. Thus I damn this system.
    It represents the ugliness of humanity It is a symbol, a great symbol of corruption in the hearts of men.

    One that we could, without a doubt, do without.

  58. conscript lor when war comes bye bye see which singaporean male would stay to defend the FTs or our families

  59. Aiya you singaporeans guys can only say. Don’t dare to do la. Look at china bus driver, they protest to government that their pay is low, then gov straight away raise their salary loh. Singapore people dare say don’t dare do. Don’t say la go sleep. Case slow. That’s why NS system will never change!

  60. Some of Janice’s points are actually valid. Not trying to start a strife here, but take a few years back to discuss about our dear neighbour, Malaysia.

    Back during the days of merger, they constantly oppressed Singapore and seemed to hasten the process towards our separation. Many reasons as to why followed, some being:

    1. Knowing we had not much natural resources and being a small country, force us and the government into collapse and then claim Singapore for sovereignty; OR

    2. Going by the textbooks, due to the large amount of chinese immigrants, the Malaysian government was vehemently afraid of a Communist uprising- which apparently never saw light.

    Returning to the present day Singapore and Malaysia, look at us now. WHAT A SIGHT TO BEHOLD! As of now, our currency stands roughly 2.5 times against the ringgit for every dollar. You don’t think they want a piece of us? Oh you don’t? Well we can’t be too sure. And what do we do when we can’t be too sure? WE MAKE SURE.

    With that said, what better way to make sure then having an army with a strong pool of soldiers ready to defend the motherland? But ah, reality is a bitch. Oh! If only we are bigger! Larger! GINORMOUSLARGER! Annnnnnnnd we ain’t, so it comes down to conscription.
    Whine and grunt as we might, lets face it. If we as citizens of Singapore do not defend her, who will? That’s where the “foreign talents” come in.

    Now, even with all the magnanimity i can muster, there are still some things i myself cannot find agreeing to. Like many Singaporeans, over the years of, what i believe to be excessive, influx of FTs, our general disposition of them are getting slightly unfavourable.
    Spare me the trouble as to why, ask your friendly Singaporean neighbours and they can only be so happy to enlighten you.

    Back to what I’m about to bring forth, say there are over a million(?) PRCs here. China decides: “I’m bored. Let’s go to war Sing-kie.” Now, give those 1 million+ PRC a gun.
    The FIRST question would be: Which side are they going to point the gun at? Will gratitude even be a question in face of loyalty?
    That’s where a better solution comes in, WHY NOT LEAVE THEM UNTRAINED, THEN TAKE THEM AS HOSTAGE WHEN CHINA TRIES ANYTHING FUNNY? BEST IDEA EVARRRRR!!!!!

    Okay maybe that might have been over the top but hey, just a suggestion right? But in all seriousness and relevance, if i had to take a chance, i wouldn’t want the foreigners knowing how i operate my defenses; spoils the surprise y’know what i mean?
    I’m not trying to frame Malaysia alone either, just taking her for relatable measures.

    And then last but not least, to each his own, I’d say conscription is important and a “legit” method of defense development in sunny-side Singapore.
    A well educated citizen forcefully drafted to be a badass for his country? Sounds… interesting, tell me more about it.
    Get paid a monthly salary to do it? Ohhh kay.
    Over a span of two and a half years? Hmm… fine.
    And serve a 10 years of reservist after that? Umm.. I think i can bear with-
    And lose your girlfriend while you’re inside? FUCK NO. BABE, WE’RE MIGRATING THIS VERY MOMENT.

  61. @brenda what did the china bus drivers get? they got deported do you wish to know what a NSF would receive should he do something on the same level of the china bus drivers? Think before you say anything stupid.

  62. I don’t think that serving NS will do any part in protecting our little country. We’re not living in the 50s or 60s when soldiers win the war with numbers and skill. If a war were to happen, several bombs from the attacking country will be enough to sink our country, no matter the amount of soldiers we got.

  63. After so much comments and disputes amongst all of us. What can we do other then whine ? Do you really think the government is going to do anything about this ? #justsaying

  64. you guys are all fucking idiots just shut the fuck up and stop arguing. if you hate singapore and our government so much then give up your citizenship and get the fuck out too. we don’t need balless and useless assholes like y’all who only know how to complain and slam others.

  65. Seriously who gives a fuck about defending Singapore?no like anything will help when a bomb came crashing. if the government is going to settle our migration smoothly then i think singapore will be left with FT only.And goddamnit the pay of NS is not maid’s pay, even hiring a maid cost more than paying for NSF

  66. @Alvin:
    Quote: “I gave two and a half years of my life to full-time national service. I completed this in 2001. It has been 12 years since. Way passed ten years from my ORD date. I find it ridiculous that I still have to serve at least 4 more “work years” – likely near to my 40s before I can get discharged from this slavery system.

    Forty years old… think about it. That is more than half of an average lifespan. An awfully long time to keep sacrificing for the nation.”

    I dont think you sacrifice for the nation 40 years of your life. On a broad picture, you would probably have served the mandatory 2.5 years. Plus RT and ICT, probably another year or so. Am I right to say? And the main reason you have to serve till your 40s is because you deferred many times, no?

  67. NS “may” be necessary today. Maybe just to get us blokes battle ready in case of war. But seriously, we’re going to pit our beer bellied 40-somethings and the rest of our over-worked population against the seasoned big guns of other more established militaries? With scores of down PESed majors/LTCs/warrants to lead us into battle? With that in mind, NS is more or less obsolete. Diplomacy wins hands down

    Getting FTs to serve NS in some form negates to some extent any incentive to work here -> I carry a foreign passport but gotta defend SG if war breaks out? Fuck this! I’m leaving. Then SG won’t be able to attract MNCs to set up shop here. Then SG is fucked. Because the MNCs will all move to China

    What govt should do is even out the playing field. Don’t mess with the FT system, but zhng the job protection/prospects for SG males so it’s level or perhaps slightly better than the rest.

    Women.. Should stop commenting on NS related subjects. Need to bear children and extend the future of mankind? Need to be a princess/lady and be pampered like a little child? Take a leaf from Israeli women. Hardcore Amazon-like women who can be feminine, bear children, raise them, take care of a family and serve their version of NS just the same. Their version of NS is more hardcore than SG’s childcare centre – Someone mentioned NS was to him like a big boy’s scout camp – But then they’re a nation at war. And we’re a nation at peace, so why are our guys serving NS again?

  68. “In the mean time, I am subjected to silly school boy hair check at least once a year when I get called back for in-camp training. Not that I like keeping long hair, but I would at least like to have the option to make that decision myself instead of having MINDEF and SAF dictate that for me into my middle age. I am not a full-time soldier. I did not sign up for a career in the army. I was conscripted.”

    Its the Army, not a school. So silly school boy hair check is really poor comparison. You are not a full-time soldier, but a soldier nonetheless. Do you dress sloppily for work? For an important meeting? No? Then the least you should do is to respect the Army’s dress code. We may be reservists so we might not think its important but what about the regulars? Should we spoil the image of a soldier for them?

  69. “Not everybody is born fit and with a physique built to pass IPPT up to their 40s. There are some people who just cannot pass. In any case, my health and my fitness are my own choices in life which I prefer to take my own responsibility for. I hate having MINDEF and SAF dictate these for me.”

    Nobody is born fit. Those who are fit merely have that extra discipline to maintain their fitness. You dont need to have a physique built to pass IPPT to pass IPPT. Its not like the Army train you to carry 30kg worth of load for 30km or what. But I do agree with you, its a matter of choice. If you dont believe in it, you wont do it.

  70. “Google defines a slave as “a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.”

    Does this definition reminds you of NS and reservist?”

    If you allow the situation to define you, well, I really guess NS and reservists seems like slavery. And if the situation does not define you, but rather its your reaction that defines you, then NS and reservists are NOT slavery. So what defines you really?

  71. “Nonetheless, if I ever choose to migrate out of Singapore. MINDEF and SAF are highly responsible.”

    Hypothetically, if you ask MINDEF or SAF if you should migrate elsewhere, what do you think their response will be? If you do migrate, it has nothing to do with them. Its YOUR choice. You shouldnt externalise your problems and held others accountable!

  72. @Cheek: I dont think Diplomacy wins hands down. You cant have Diplomacy if you do not have an strong armed forces. Likewise, becoming a warring state is not the way to go. Its about balance. You need to have both. There is no either or. Perhaps you should really do research on our neighbours before making such statement. We might be living in peaceful waters, but we might not have very friendly neighbours. Do you know how many soldiers they have? And do you know what their leaders think of us?

  73. @janice , talking is free. that why i see you make everything sounds so nice n easy when the fact that you dont need to serve and waste the time.
    TBH, i’m not against of NS. I agree i had grew up n learn alot during NS, but they r simply waste of time.
    Girls should really go NS too. To stop having more attitude problem girls or talking big making NS sounds as easy life as winning a dota match

    Getting low pay and shit work. Cant even moonlighting. I had to even pay for stuff too. that was a bad 2 years when i’m alway out of money n tinking that FT is alway getting my job

  74. I’m currently serving my NS as a lifeguard, an NSF role that is slowly being phased out as people bring in contractors. I feel that this is a step in the right direction.

    The issue is that most people feel that NS is a waste of time, mostly due to the number of roles post-BMT (Such as Clerks and Storemen) that feels rather “dead-endish”, that you would rather put the time to better use doing something else. And the trouble is that most people actually want the roles since they feel that they are not in the capacity to be serving a Military. And more often than not, it is true (at least proven by medical examination.) and they really don’t have a choice. Fair enough, they still have to do something useful in the meantime. Off they go to being a Clerk then.

    And then they use that time to do other things – Pursue an interest, retake certain examinations, give tuition to earn a little extra money on the side, etc. Or they can just sleep or stand around doing nothing and waste their time. Ironically, the “dead-end” jobs are also the ones that give people the most flexibility in terms of time, at least from my experiences.

    I also think that there is some job potential here. Why bother giving the roles to NSFs who have to be taught what to do, and then when they are taught, they ORD and are phased out after only a short period of time? And then the cycle repeats? Horribly inefficient, I tell you.

    Logistics are important, I get it, but don’t you think a person who actually knows what he is doing would have an easier time organizing things and doing his job? The job and pay is stable, there’s some pretty attractive working perks, etc. The only issue is that it feels pretty restricting and there isn’t much prospects down the horizon (not very attractive as a job). That frees up more manpower for people to take on Military Roles, assigned according to their fitness levels and ability. Even a man with a bad back can’t fight? I have a sports injury? That feels horribly short-sighted to me. If at this point more people are training to fight, then the NSF term could be shortened to minimize the disadvantage that we experience.

    Just a passing thought.

  75. Just sharing my experience, my boss is a FT so he never gone thru any of our NS life. So every year we have to go back RT, ICT, Call-up etc.. As the FT boss, he would rather employ more foreigners and female instead of me have to attend ICT, RT every year.. Bosses only wants what’s best for his company, they don’t want to hire a local guy who work lesser days/yr.. But i’m sure local bosses also think this way.

  76. Honestly @janice please keep your “constructive” opinions and comments to yourself… I think your husband see you talking so much shit here he will slap you too.. Come online want to step one know it all..

    Women say men will never know the pain of childbirth, and we really don’t. So stop pretending you know the pain of NS.

  77. @janice : who knows , maybe foreign power that takes over Singapore might even run it better than it is now . our Government know how to up GDP per capita but don’t know how to up QOL . being better in terms of economically we would naturally be the thorn in the flesh of our asian neighbours .

  78. Singapore should really rethink about their defence capabilities and changing how the way things work. Despite the fact most of them are blue collar workers, they contributed nothing to singapore’s defence system. No matter how singapore tries to improve itself, dropping a bomb on this little red dot really ends it all. As such, I really think that singapore should rethink the purpose of serving ns as advanced technologies has already allowed us to be more dependable on them rather than a hands-on combat

  79. All PRs should serve in Civil Defence. All new citizens who are deemed too old shold serve in the Civil Defence until aged 45. These should help the playing field for jobs and even out the uneven playing filed for Singaporeans who have to serve in-camp training. This will also ensure that PRs and New Citizens are ingrained towards protecting Singapore.

    SAF should stop using NS as a wayh to promote elitism. Officers and recruits and other ranks should all be served the same food and to eat together. The fascist PAPzi regime has used conscription to propagate elitism. This can be easily stopped as per my proposal.

  80. Before I have more insults hurled at me, actually I have to say, despite the crude language, I have to agree with some of you. Here’s a reiteration of some of my points again:

    1. All Singaporeans should be involved in the NS, including girls, new citizens, anyone who possesses a Singaporean passport. Who knows, with double the intake, maybe it’ll only take half the time? But, like what you guys have repeated, talk is cheap. Nothing would be done unless one of us decides to invade the policy department.

    2. Nonetheless, I don’t expect NS to be entirely out of our lives. It may all be for show only, but without this wayang, I think jumping into the sea would be a faster way to die.

    Alright. I shall shut up forever because my husband said that I need not expose myself to more insults hurled at me. For those who think he should have a say, those points are also his views. (He’s beside me right now.)

    Thanks for the fruitful discussion, and no thanks for the insults.

  81. I’m female and I agree NS and Reservist is a waste of time, esp reservist. My hubby is taken away to reservist every year for sometimes 2 weeks? I depend alot on him to help with house and kids. We both work full time and no maid, my sons are 2 years old and baby. With him not around, it’s hell at home. Kids sick, I have to take many days leave to cope, in the end I also sick. Govt still asking families to have more kids or ask women to contribute to workforce… I find the msgs very confusing. Ask me to work, have kids etc but take my hubby away every year so that I no choice but take leave to cope, Sg mummies not superwoman ok!

    My personal impression from hearing NS stories from male friends is that reservist is waste time and army resources as the reservist guys aren’t really helping much (coz not full time army personnel), going there to be like temp staff like that. My thinking is why not make army career so very much more attractive that ppl really wanna join full time and army can pick the best suited ppl (male/female) and don’t force unwilling ppl to go NS? I mean, like that army happy (coz got full time soldiers), soldiers happy (coz they are attracted by benefits), no need to force all guys.

  82. This is so funny. Actually there are only a few blokes making noises. Not representative. Ignore thus discussion. Don’t waste your time defending. Just some being trying to justify why he left Singapore with FT issue WHEN there were no FT issues at his time. You are all spawned and wasted your time here.

  83. @janice Try juggling work, rushing to pick up kids from childcare centres by 7pm, cooking for the family…and add reservist duty/NS for females?

  84. This whole “FT never serve NS” discussion is so old. If first year citizens must serve NS, then most of our grandparents and parents (including my own Dad) should all have been conscripted already, if they wanted to talk “fair”. Half of the current population will already not be Singaporeans.

  85. Everytime I consider NS to be a worthwhile “waste of time” for the reasons of serving my country, national defense and all that patriotic bullshit, then I remember how NS boys are exploited for meaningless “vanity projects” like NDP (annually) and that huge farce of YOG.

    Whenever anything requires mass cheap activation for the sake of some PAP mandated nonsense, you can be sure NS boys will be “volunteered”. And that more than anything tells me that NS is a waste of time.

  86. 1) Singapore is a fine country, and fine is already an understatement for its achievements it have attain till today’s date. When the whole world is worried about their ricebowl and how the global economy would crush their dreams, we have only firstworld problems to worry about. The attraction of foreign talents to Singapore is to constantly ensure that Singapore continues to remain relevant to the global economy. I want my property and stock prices here to always remain valuable as far as it is concerned. Additionally, the majority of us would understand the implications why NS requires us to continue to be part of the force even after our 2 years of service because we need the numbers, its simple math. No numbers, no force, no security, no investement, down on GDP, down on property price, down on standard of living.

    HOWEVER
    2) The simplest reason why you would find National Service such a dreadful thing to go through is because of the people. Its the regulars of SAF which makes it so unbearable for us conscripted Nsmen. They have displayed an absence of empathy for the conscripted Nsmen who have painstakingly sacrificed our private time for this noble cause, noting that the regulars choose to make it their livelihood. Knowing that there is a need for them to strive to have a good defence force and also a good career which is extremely admirable, they should also realise that they are imposing their ideals and perfectionism on people who aren’t part of the regular force, and part of it is for your own personal gain. Your priority in life isn’t necessarily my priority in life.

    3) I hope you would make amendments to the system to better accommodate the main stakeholder of this issue because we are also facing increase difficulties in life. We simply do not have the capacity to commit to your countless ICTs anymore as much as our forefathers could. No one wants to complain for no reason. I would like to do my part for this country but please make it more bearable and achievable.

  87. 叶问 once said: when we are in disagreement within, how can we win against others…?

    No doubt Mindef has not fought a war but it is offensive to put down pple who felt honored for contributing. Another quote: “to train an army for a thousand days is so they can be put to use one of these days.” U dun train Mums and dads how to discipline a child only when they show signs of bring naughty yeah?

    National defense is of utmost importance, I agree on only citizens can be part of this, need not elaborate more why.

    lastly, I empathize with those who fail n have to head back for rts and ippts and felt disadvantaged by the lack of understanding of ur loved ones. perhaps that accounts for the constant mudslinging at those who shows the slightest disagreement with your views. However do not do that too often as that might reflect badly upon how you approach issues in ur life and if it is a habit, it will b dangerous.

    From a non-IB person.

  88. This is just about all we can do really – commiserate, sympathise, etcetera.

    I’ve lost all faith as to believe that the system won’t ever change in our favour. To paraphrase Alfred Tennyson, ‘[Ours] not to reason why, [ours] but to do and die.’

  89. I am 31 and this is my final post on the matter as I have nothing to value add anymore.

    i am nt being enthusiastic about being the army or what. i am just a regular office worker with kid and family and trying to make ends meet too. i dun wish to sign on because i know the army is not the lifelong career for me. certainly people who tried to gauge my enthusiam for the army after a single post are wrong. sad to say, but if I am reading correctly, 20 sessions of exercises in a year will cause damage to careers and family bonding… maybe true for some who live from hand to mouth, but it will def be a stretch to believe otherwise…

    lets extrapolate this further. so am I right to say people expect the gov to pay for their hospital bills when they are ill (I know this is not happening but we do have universal healthcare provided at affordable rates in public institutions) but will not wish to put in effort to take care of their health if ippt is used as proxy, I.e. moral hazard problem in economics. before I get blasted for being brainwashed or not living in reality re affordable healthcare in singapore, all my kids vaccination is done in polyclinics which is provided for free. my mum cancer treatment in sgh was funded by medifund when my dad was earning crap and I was still serving the army.

    how abt linking the results of ippt to a more tangible outcome? pass ippt every month and let the monthly medishield premium be refundable since there may be a comparatively lower chance of catastrophic illnesses? solution to the moral hazard problem and less chances of fallling sick with chronic diseases like high blood or obesity?

    dun worry I know I will be blasted, but kinda sad to see fellow citizens blasting the system like nobodys businesses…if its indeed a bad system, what do u suggest? cut to one year? cut to 5 high keys? discuss it properly instead of throwing tantrums lile spoilt kids.

    ps: dun be personal. females may nt serve ns, but doesnt mean they r dumb or dun understand the implications.

  90. Hi all, Singapore just needs a 4kg atomic bomb to clear us all so despite having all the citizen army, we all still die . Another thing is Singapore has no natural resources and things that other countries want to take . Only our location in the world for business . So what makes people think they would bomb Singapore and invade Singapore and take over us ? Waste of time and resources . Same goes for NS, Waste of time and resources . geez

  91. @janice Stop supporting NS la. Yes NS is good and that’s what Israel and South Korea’s succeed in but bear in mind. Israel and ROK are hot territories. Anytime war may start on their soil but Singapore? Mind me saying this? Singapore Government too “kiasee” to wage war and using “No more WW3” as an excuse would be retarded. One nuclear bomb would wipe out Singapore, Malaysia AND Thailand. Plus why only guys? Look at WW2 in America and Britain. Britain mostly. They lost their Gibraltar in the East but their ladies fought on Anti-Aircraft stations fighting the Luftwaffe. American ladies did not fight but they helped out America by working in war industries churning out tons of weaponry making America the highest equipped all the way to Korean War. Singapore ladies like you? Chui gong lampa song. What’s the point? Serve NS then say la! We should be prepared for all stuff yes but the constant Reservist is really wasting time besides… Speaking of power, MINDEF IS the power. It is dictating our lives. We could have been getting a diploma within the 2 1/2 years or 3 years for obese people. Plus look at Syria or Lybia. If a person needs to revolt, even a well-trained Army would not be able to withstand the attack of a poorly trained Militia.

  92. This whole “FT never serve NS” discussion is so old. If first year citizens must serve NS, then most of our grandparents and parents should all have been conscripted already, if they wanted to talk “fair”. Half of the current population will already not be Singaporeans.

  93. @janice should just keep in silence forever on this matter. It’s all consripted men’s topic. Just like no men should comment on how to deal with labout pain, PMS, etc…

  94. @Janice. The whole point about the comment section is to have an open discussion. If you want to paste some comment here, you have to accept people who agree and disagree. You are taking it too personal, especially by bringing your husband up, saying he’s beside you. Take a look at what @Mum of 2 have to say about NS. I think it is very applicable, especially, emphasizing that NS is not only affecting the male that are serving the country, but actually has became a family issue.

  95. @janice.

    100% of Male Singaporean serves NS.
    30% of Male 2G PR serve NS & 70% of Male 2G PR AWOL. (Quote by one of the MP)
    100% of Male 1G PR does no needs to serve NS.
    100% of Male Foreigners does no needs to serve NS.
    100% of Female Singaporean does not need to serves NS.
    100% of Female 2G PR does not need to serve NS.
    100% of Female 1G PR does not need to serve NS.
    100% of Female Foreigners does no needs to serve NS.

    ———————————————————————————————–

    Out of these groups of people, 16.25% out of 100% (130% out of 800%) are serving NS to protect Singapore. If we do not protect Singapore, who will when war come? We train hard for 2 to 2.5 years of full time NS & up to 40 to 50 year old for Reservist for this cause but please take notice that we do not volunteer for it but force to serve under enlistment act. There are a lot of servicemen asking me this question & I am unable to answer them as a commander.

    a) Are 16.25% of the population enough to cover protection of the remaining 83.75% of the population?

    b) Why the rest of the 83.75% does does not need to serve NS but are given similar citizen benefits like 16.25% who serve NS?

    ———————————————————————————————–

    1) My question to you is this even half of the Singapore population for male SIngaporeans & PRs to to begin with?

    2) Is this even fair for those who serve their NS in the first place?

  96. I am a SIngaporean, rather just an average Singaporen. I did not do well in NS and failed my IPPTs inspite trying very hard. Sure, our system is not perfect. Singaporeans have a long way to go before they can achieve the national pride say like Japan. After working overseas (but not Japan), I think they have a stanch sense of nationhood. Anyway, I think we should not give up. Our forefathers have done this under worse conditions, why can’t we? For those who to leave, sure, it is their choice but they have shared a part of their life with us. We are grateful and I hope they too.

  97. @Cheek (October 6, 2013 at 4:49 am)

    1) Business Investor choice Singapore because they have goodies from Government instead of giving Under-table gift. Employees (Singaporeans) in Singapore will not stop work to riots as & when they like which affect business operation.

    2) Business Investor who want greener pastures such as cheaper labor cost have already left for China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia & many more counties to be name out. Only those who cannot left due to some reasons will KPKB say Singaporean must wake up their idea on expected salary.

    Source: I used to work as a HR for few MNCs.

  98. Wow. The number of people dismissing rational comments just because of the commenter’s gender. So now the rule is to embark on personal attacks if you can’t handle opposing arguments?

    I couldn’t see how males were disadvantaged before, but if your current intellect is indeed a result of the system I pray that NS be dissolved for the future of our nation.

    And all you people who would like to leave the country please do, stop harping on it when you really don’t have the intention to do anything at all. It’s pathetic. Nobody is stopping you – unless, of course, you’re not good enough for other countries. Then suck it up. If you’re successful though, congrats on your new label of a foreign talent.

  99. @janice, Singapore army sucks! Look at the troopers – they are too weak! If some country would want to take over, they would do it within single day! The same as Japanese did on bicycles!

  100. All of them do not realise how lucky they are. If they are born in Israel or in Palestine, they will realise the values of NS and the need to fight for your rights and your existence. These are the self-centred, selfish and arrogant values that Singaporeans do not want. Such individualistic view all focussed upon SELF.

  101. those saying that we should DEFEND singapore to ensure our freedom or what not, please think about any reason singapore might be attacked.
    remember first that singapore has no Natural resources to speak of, and hence any invasion or war would be for one or more of the following reasons

    1. crazed foreign leader intent on world domination
    2. our dear government who pisses us off so much managed to piss off another country.
    3. similar to number 2, some huge disagreement on an international level. maybe some issue like political ideology, or disagreement over ways to settle problems.
    4. singapore goes on the offensive to ensure security of certain resources (ie water, energy in various forms)

    so now i shall go into the likelihood of something like that happening.

    1.crazed foreign leader is unlikely. some crazed power like germany or japan in WWII would be agreeably crushed by the world powers afraid of a shift in balance of power. look. the world cant even keep their nose out of syria where the country is in CIVIL, not international war.

    2. our dear government is so scared of losing power or losing face that they do something that pisses off somebody enough to attack us. unlikely that this escalates to war and what not.
    if anything, it’ll be the government losing.
    one incident of a smaller scale is singapore claiming ownership over pedra branca. aside from this there arent many other land area disputes singapore can throw themselves into, unless we suddenly claim ownership of johor bahru, or malaysia claims ownership of tekong or ubin or some shit.

    3. put into simpler words- government desperately clinging to power and complete control over us, and they just cant bear to lose a single bit of it, and we are brainwashed into rallying behind government throwing us into a conflict because we want to be “free”

    4 will be discussed later.

    as for the 1,2 and 3, if you think those are things that wont take care of themselves, consider it on a deeper level.

    if somebody attacks singapore for revenge… then screw it. the conflict would be the doing of a government that also, in the first place, put NS and the ridiculous defence budget in place, and of course avoiding conflict is surely possible as long as we dont try to assert our sense of national self-entitlement to resources in the world.

    if not for revenge, then the aggressor towards us would want to seize singapore for her dear resources. what is this resource? the resource is not oil, and is definitely not land. its the people and the economy (INCLUDING THE WAY IT WORKS). would they go about killing their newly acquired resource? or worse still, damage the economy which they want control over<—- attacking singapore would be damaging to the economy in any case.
    so just say they want our economy so they can have more money from taxes and shit. then ok. isnt that more of a change of government, but the new government wouldnt change policies and laws too much because changing the laws would destroy the economy. not what they want.

    in essence, anybody attacking us wont destroy and kill us simply because we are what is valuable. sending our paper army to war is like iraq burning all their oil so they are no longer valuable and worth an invasion. kind of an intelligent type deterrence isnt it.. after all ruling power still rules even if our lives go to shit right?
    so now think. scenario: our great army defends us from aggressor successfully, but families are torn apart because x-number of forcedly conscripted men die, and CBD and 10000 homes are destroyed. Y-number of women are pregnant/ tramatised by war-time crimes (ie rape) by aggressor. looks like singapore GG. and wow so we won the war. independence FTW. ruling power must be our dear govt regardless. doesnt matter if all our lives have become shit as a result of resisting. as long as dear big brother takes care of us (which they actually dont)

    does that make sense to you? if we are taken over, it doesnt take any genius to also know that if new brother mistreats us then economy also eventually becomes shit because we wont be the inspired hardworking people we are, which is what makes this economy successful.
    i dont criticise our current government in other aspects because lets face it, economy is not the best but its O-K. maybe decent. depends on which part of the social ladder you are iraq, syria, afghanistan.
    if us went to war with russia, and both have nukes, both will be scared as shit of each other using the nukes, and one will very quickly screw the anti nuke treaty and make the first move.therefore war ends fast and yay they come to our aid if not rescue.

    as to discussing singapore having to ensure resources, consider this.
    according to wiki, SAF has
    71600 active personnel including 39800 conscripts
    950k+ reserve personnel.
    budget 12.8 billion (6% of GDP)

    not looking at “available for military service” which is just about 1.3M

    39800 conscripts taken our from 71600 means 31k~ regulars.
    those who have served NS, we know that the work they do is often repetitive and more to facilitate NSF and NSmen serving instead. so id say most of the work they do is considered unproductive by any pragmatic standpoint, since NSF and NSmen work is also effectively useless.
    1 year:
    so imagine 31000(working age adults)x330(proposed work days a year)x7.5(hours a day).
    plus 39800 conscripts. lets say half study to do higher level work 2 years earlier, and therefore have 2 extra years to work before they reach retirement age.
    39800(conscripts) x 330(proposed working days a year) x 7.5 (hours a day)
    plus
    950k+ (lets take 1M)
    1M reserve personnel just say they dont do RT and ICT and shit and have an extra 50 hours a year to work.

    thats 225.23 MILLION working hours.
    if i divide that by this slack work schedule of 330 days X 7.5 hours,
    thats equivalent to the economic product that those people can produce.
    that is 91 THOUSAND FULL WORK YEARS SAVED. imagine how the economy can benefit from an extra 91 thousand years of product(GDP) EVERYyear.
    dont forget to add 12.08 billion dollars (1 quarter of budget) to the work product we could have.

    that brings me to the next point singapore would have a fuck lot more money. with that much, what could we not buy.. water?! i think we could buy over the malaysian banks if we saved for a few years. buying the military aid of others might even be possible but ofcourse unlikely. the main point is actually economic warfare being the most viable, because we are damn good at working, and not good at soldiering and killing.
    with lots of money and friends at our aid, and even the ability to hire a mercenary army..
    and trade sanctions among a whole list of things we could do to an enemy’s economy..
    i dont see how this isnt being tried. if we need to secure water then we could make it profitable enough for somebody to sell it to us with such resources.
    national service –> work for SG govt to help earn money.

    ofcourse all this is kinda bullshit logic when put together as a whole.
    but if you have brains im sure you can see how each bit may be true individually, and how fucked up the idea of having the army and military NS is as a whole

  102. Gonna leave this comment here:
    During Ns i served as a combat medic, i have within that 2 years of my life saved 6-7 people from actually losing consciousness and having their life fade out right in front of my eyes. But with all that experience i gathered still i find ns a waste of time and manpower, even with the risk of dying every now and then. You could say i got the better end of the stick that i gathered medical knowledge in army but what i experienced from that 2 years should not have been a compulsory national service which all Singapore males had to go through, I won’t even argue about all the FT and etc..

  103. @janice

    I admit that there is some validity to your arguments, primarily to do with the fact that ultimately, the security of our nation does take, and will continue to take precedence over the more-or-less minor pains of serving NS and re-service. However I’m sorry to say that they don’t carry any persuasive weight due to the (very) stark fact that you’re a female Singaporean, and hasn’t been through the kind of loss of freedom that is associated with National Service. (I’m speaking as an NSF who is forced to be away from his family and friends, due to the sheer accident of birth that I was born a Singaporean boy) At this point of time, your arguments, while valid, sound more patronising and self-righteous than reasonable. Please do not presume to know what we should think and behave when you cannot speak from personal experience.

    If truly you are as nationalistic as you sound, and fuelled with such profound nationalism and fear of security, then you should push for female Singaporeans to serve their own National Service, if not the physical aspects of it, then with the administrative work, or non-intensive stuff like social services, counselling, and systems control. It is entirely possible. But do you think young Singaporean women would even agree to that? Hell no, they’re having the time of their lives enriching themselves in universities across the world, while we’re rolling in the mud, being screamed at like slaves and dogs, all because we’d be sent to jail if we remotely reject the kind of conscription and slavery that has been imposed on us by constitutional law.

    Ultimately, I don’t disagree with you that our country will never be free from the fear of security that has led directly to the pseudo-slavery of National Service. We probably can never escape this system, not at least in the next few decades. But the last thing we want to hear is a woman telling us how desperately we need to continue being such slaves, in the same way how it is absurd for a man to tell a woman why menstruation is a healthy and normal part of life.

  104. Since Singapore having increment of outrage molestes case, therefore NS should not only have males to enter army.

  105. beautiful, finally people expressing the ridiculousness of national slavery!!!!

    ns is not all about the army. everyone forgets the police force and civil defense. to me, in 2013, an army is the least important thing to a country especially to Singapore. once it gets to warfare, Singapore would just be fucked. our fate is determined by the CEOs of the corporations that run the world, not by how great our bloody external defense force is. I don’t see the point of an army in our position. if we want to “help” other countries, wouldn’t sending a task force of qualified firefighters and medical teams be much better than sending a bunch of guys with guns over?

    ns is not all about the army. everyone forgets that we conscript our police and firefighters too. I mean, we certainly shouldn’t let anyone choose their vocation, right? because god forbid, what if they actually do a good job cause they care about it?

    then again though, I can’t say that nobody does a good job. government media in Singapore has been pretty successfull in programming us over the last few decades to accept and obey. we get their agenda done. lots of people take their ns seriously, and sometimes it actually enriches their lives. but for the most part, I feel that everyone just hates it. not enough people express their disdain for this, but people always forget their power in this country. no one rules if no one obeys.

    they wanna institute national service, how about replacing every single army camp with a renewable energy facility, run by conscripts ? same thing, much more benefit to the country as a whole. but it’s just an idea, you know, cause, who wants that to happen??

  106. Once again, I am open to discussion, and yes, I shouldn’t have brought it to a personal level. I apologise for that.

    However, please also refrain from making comments based on my gender, about how I’m a hypocrite, I carry balls, my husband should slap me, and etc. I believe all of us are entitled to our views and perspectives. As of now, I feel discriminated on this forum, just because this is a “guy’s topic” and I, as a female, gets insulted to no end by expressing my view.

    As a mother of two as well, I feel the heavy burden from working 10hrs a day and juggling work and kids and school and what-nots while my husband is away for his reservist. But if all these hardwork can ensure that my children live in a safe society (and not in Israel etc where lives are taken every minute), I’d gladly do so.

    For the next few females who are going to comment, may I request that you guys treat them kindly. Thanks.

  107. Just speaking from my own experience here…

    I’ve been lucky enough to not been call up for reservist (YET), but I have plenty of male friends who hate being called up, especially during their holidays while studying in university.

    And those same male friends, upon graduating and securing jobs, actually look forward to their ICT as a way of taking a break from their work, catching up with old buddies and stuff. Well, maybe they just hate their jobs lol. For every friend I know that hates IPPT because he can’t pass and has to go for RT, I know another who takes the effort to keep fit in order to pass (or even get $400). So, 2 sides of the coin here.

    Sure, NS isn’t perfect. And the world isn’t fair. We grumble about having to serve, while elsewhere people fight to survive everyday. Yes we have problems and issues, but once you look at the bigger picture, they seem laughingly insignificant.

  108. I think the girls should not comment so much if they are thinking of contributing they could do it by being comfort woman for the recruits like how the proud Japanese girls used to contribute to their nation

  109. Selfish individuals like the quoted and this blogger take our nation for granted. Please wake up and realise the peace and prosperity around you is not a god given right.

    Yes it is a sacrifice. Want to leave without obligations and responsibilities? Why not buy yourself an island, make and live by your own rules.

    To other commenters, so easy to use work and family as an excuse for your inability to keep fit. But realise it is but an excuse! Need to spend time with kids?- why not make it a point to exercise WITH your kids. Or if they are too young, put them in a running stroller! Busy at work?- who isn’t? Tried using the stairs at work to get some exercise in?

    There can be a million and one excuses, but there are a million and one ways to make it a win-win. Ultimately benefits you to stay fit, so please stop whining about IPPT obligations.

    And of ICT – yes at times you get called up at the most inopportune of moments. But I have personally managed to defer my ICT twice when I explained and made my case as to how a particular call-up might disrupt my career progression and promotion chances. My commanders were understanding enough to grant the deferments despite that being an accepted reason per Mindef guidelines.

    On the flip side – admit it, sometimes ICT is a welcome breather away from work and a chance to catch up with buddies from NS. You get to share life experiences, share similar challenges at the workplace, marriage and parenthood. It is not just about the planned ICT curriculum, it is also about camaraderie and relationship building.

    Come the day we do go to war for whatever reason, I am sure glad Alex (and I wish Alvin you would leave too) are not Singaporeans any more. Because I sure do not want to fight beside you.

  110. If you read the BBC link, Alex is not the only one to give up his nationality due to compulsory military service. There are at least several others, such as the exAustrian and exTurkish..

  111. @janice – this is obviously a gender issue, if you are still not clear about it. the conscription based on gender only has already clearly define it as a gender issue. it can only be a non-gender issue when all singaporeans regardless of males or females, are conscripted into NS, equally and fairly.

    don’t step into the gender related issue (only males conscripted NS) and gives us your two-cents nonsense comments when you are totally off the hook.

    I am male and I don’t go around commenting to females how to use their tampon or sanitary pad simply because that’s a gender related issue, that will be DUH!!!

  112. just as white men shouldn’t make large sweeping comments on the plight of women and POC, I don’t think women should be making such comments on the plight of NSmen. there’s no way men will understand how women suffer day to day and they have no right to comment on women’s rights; but I also believe this is the same for how women who aren’t serving will never understand the NS man suffering.

  113. I can relate to what was written. Personally, I’ve been to NS, and I have also given up my Sg citizenship for a New Zealand one since I’m permanently based in Australia. Before, and during my service in the army, I saw the experience as a waste of time, but come what I am now, I look back and see that I did benefit by learning how to be responsible for my own actions. On hindsight, I do still feel its a waste of time, but is necessary for the survival of the country.

    I gave up my citizenship as it benefited me by leaps and bounds in terms of studies and living costs, without being bound to having to return to Singapore in future and be bound to certain obligations that many of the rest of you are facing. I have the utmost respect for y’all just for serving, whether it be voluntary or forced.

    I feel that girls should not take too big a stand on such issues, unless they themselves have enlisted and know firsthand experience on the matter. My biggest criticism of Singapore’s system, is the refusal to accept dual citizenship. Personally, I’ve grown up for most of my childhood and adolescent age, attending National Service when I was of the right age, only to have to give my citizenship up due to Singapore’s strict laws. Personally, there is still a chance I may return to contribute further to the economy.

    All the government really does with its many strict laws, is drive the good and hardworking folk further from home. That’s my personal insight, its nice reading everyone’s insight. Take care y’all

  114. people like you are not fit to be called a man. whine and whine about NS, but srsly la is NS really that hard????? I am a guy also so you don’t fucking wayang with me.

    Admit it, NS is NOTHING compared to the outside world(unless u are those sibei lepak kind) and reservist, pls. it is a JOKE. Go back is macam holiday vacation. yes true, it is somewhat regimental. yes you have your 3-4 days field camp and combat shoot. but srsly, what are all those compared to your boss fucking you upside down and those projects and work that keeps piling up and up and up?

    I think singaporean men really ah, sometimes cmi. In NS, keng and keng. come out NS, still trying to keng.

    Pls la don’t use NS as an excuse to shoot the govt. I, as a man, who have been through NS can see the hole in your flawed logic.

  115. Trust me, your perspective towards the how the NS system works will change once you experience it. You are forced to do stuff that you don’t like. Worst still, you will be charged if you don’t do it well.

  116. relac man. we shld all encourage girls like janice to push for compulsory ns for all! at least there’s a chance, not like the example @Jacob raised — don’t think menstruation in men will ever happen. she dun understand doesnt mean she’s wrong leh. if you all no guts to tong through NS, then leave this country and go be 2nd class citizens in other countries lor.

  117. well.. I think I know why you are sad. if I was you, I also feel sad.
    you don’t have friends that wish you happy birthday.

  118. If you’re capable or wealthy enough, just leave the country forever. There’s nothing you can do about the system unless you start a revolution. And if a revolution were to start, you wouldn’t want to be here anyway.

    I’m going to migrate at the earliest opportunity I get. The Government doesn’t need me, and they don’t need you either. If you stay, they’ll just continue screwing you up. Who cares that IPPT/RT/ICT affects your family life? Not them. You’re just a pawn – replaceable at any time by some half price ‘talent’ that can be imported at any time. So do yourself a favour, and just leave. Take your money with you, and spend it somewhere else. Here’s a suggestion, for a start, sell your Toyota and buy 3 brand new BMWs in America.

  119. everyday foreigners are visiting, studying and working in Singapore. Increasingly Singaporeans are married to foreigners. I am 53 yrs old, did my NS and reservist. NS so to speak is to protect Singapore. But from what invasion? Now we invite young people with scholarships, foreign talents who are willing to work, rich business men from any countries to invest, to start a family, to buy our prime location homes, and to get richer. Yet some of us still remain poor. Aren’t we already been conquered in that sense? Our FT and children of expats still can go back to their homeland to claim inheritance if any. Some seems sneering at stayers, while I applaud many Singaporeans who are now global citizens. I am not sure Alex still thinks of his family or his family already forgets about him. But for sure we can and must still protect our own family’s legacy or some might say dynasty. So before we forget our NS, our next generation must secure their own peace of mind, be it land, talent, fame or richness. Because nobody wants to know if regional conflict breaks out not our own war. Thus always have Plan B, and vote correctly for the next election. Because like what my friend says the only fair part is at our groin area, if you don’t believe me take a look at yourself.

  120. @koh . If she don’t understand, she should stay away. Until females are consripted into NS, then yiu can come and tell others to put on the listening ears. Till then, move along.

  121. I don’t agree with the way Janice and the other posters on her side put it, that people who renounce citizenship are “escaping” from the issue. There are plenty of reasons for a person to choose to leave the country.

    I joined my present employer in Singapore, but transferred to the US two years ago to take advantage of the higher education system here (I’m doing a part-time graduate degree), and got promoted about a year after I arrived, something which won’t be possible if I had stayed in SG. I love the climate and the commute here, compared to the sauna conditions and the overcrowded MRT trains in SG. I love the culture and diversity and how most people are so friendly here, compared to the typical Singaporean. My son was born here, and I’m happy that he’s born an American. We may go back to SG eventually for the sake of family, but we’re leaning towards staying here for good, depending on what happens after I graduate.

    I served 2.5 years in the CDO battalion, and also signed a 1-year contract with the SAF because I felt it was fun, so I fulfilled my NS obligations with honor and went one better. But I’ve gotten sick of my reservist obligations as well. I don’t feel motivated to push off the more important things on my calendar for 2-week ICTs anymore. Did I move to the US to “escape” reservist training? I moved because I have a better life here. The lack of government-mandated distractions is a bonus.

    I get where Janice and the others are coming from. They feel obliged to stand up and fight for their beliefs against those who claim the system is unfair or corrupted, in other words to stand up and fight for their country, against the Singaporeans who they feel are trying to undermine the country from within. These people are patriots, Maybe it’s because they’ve been treated well by the system, but they’re patriots nonetheless and I commend that.

    CK, you are not self-centered, selfish, or arrogant, unlike some of the other Singaporeans you are berating here. You recognize the value of NS, and I respect that. You are a patriot; you would die for Singapore if it goes to war with Malaysia tomorrow. Once upon a time, I would volunteer to be the first to parachute into Johor to take out their defenses. But now, I prioritize my family and my career above my birthplace. Every last Jew would be driven out if the Arabs won the Six-Day War and the state of Palestine is formed, that’s why NS is so important in Israel. But so what if Malaysia annexes Singapore and makes us part of the state of JB? It’s not like they’ll do it to slaughter every last Singaporean. Maybe my friends and relatives would become 2nd-class citizens. But really, would their lives be any different from what it is now?

    I think the key question here is patriotism. Janice et al are patriots. The people who complain about NS, FT, high minister salaries, etc are not. I guess I won’t have made the above comment about Malaysia if I am a patriot. I love the conveniences of my red SG passport, and I respect LKY for what he’s done to bring us where we are today. But I don’t consider myself a patriot. I dislike the “kiasu” culture. I think the PAP has too much power. I feel ashamed of the financial scandals that some churches and charities in SG are involved in, and I feel these scandals are a direct result of the state of society in SG.

    But is it wrong that I am not patriotic? Should every Singaporean force himself to be patriotic, to be willing to make sacrifices for the sake of his country, to sing the national anthem with tears in his eyes? Am I a traitor, or a coward, or an escapist because I chose to seek a better life in what I feel is a better country to live in?

    To Janice, CK, Michael, and the other patriots above, I would ask you this: what is it that makes you love Singapore, to the extent that you would defend it in online forums? Pretty sure it’s not about the food and shopping malls and Theatres by the Bay. Pretty sure it’s not out of gratitude to LKY and the PAP as well. And I can’t imagine that it is simply because you were born here, as that wasn’t your decision. What made you decide to love your country?

    And here’s another question. Let’s say you have the opportunity to migrate, say a big company like Google or Morgan Stanley offers to relocate you and your family to London, Tokyo, NYC, or even to Shanghai or Sydney. Or maybe the US Department of Education notices your talents and wants you to take up US citizenship and help build up their teaching programs there. Would you go? Or would you reject the offer, and stay and use your talents to help make Singapore a better nation?

  122. Janice how do you like to be tie down until the age of 40 of your life…its seem simple to say but when you are working at the same time you are call back for training..it will just affect on how your boss gonna see you..and with the RT and Ippt training is even worst..maybe if one day someone will to die of rushing daily for all that training..then midef will start to look into it..

  123. After every accident, SAF justs puts on a sshow for a while until all the heat dies down and then they go back to their old nonsense. Every year, a male sporean is at risk of dying due to negligence from their superiors. So now what do you have to say about that Janice? If you really are a girl. I hope you husband dies due to negligence from the armed forces. Good luck and have fun

  124. People whining about guys being lazy, unfit, not willing to sacrifice for the nation have to question the purpose of NS. Yes, you are charged with the noble responsibility to protect your nation and your family in times of crisis.

    But, don’t forget NS is ultimately used to preserve the current “sovereignty” of the institution. Politicians sending young men to die while they keep their institution. It is not about how tough NS is and how we are so reluctant to contribute to the “nation”. It is about how one entire generation of NSmen is being erased.

    The bottom-line – any simple analysis will show that this generation of NSmen are the sacrificial lambs to support the institution’s progress. Pardon my simplistic take on this matter but it is as simple as this:

    1) NSmen has 2 years less salaries than FT.
    2) Ceteris paribus, equally talented NSmen will always lag 2 years behind his FT peers
    3) As a result, NSmen normally are the subordinates of this FT
    4) They have no empathy of our NS liability.
    5) Deferring 1/10 of your ICT annual liability is a preference of FT and most bosses.
    6) Economic value/productivity of NSMen are easily 2 years less valuable than FT
    7) Fertility rates of NSmen are also easily 2 years less than a FT as a result.
    8) FT settles down earlier than NSMen.
    9) Becoming more common is this scenario, the FTs are the family men first who expect the bachelor NSMen to work harder for the company.
    10) Bosses could care less about ICT, IPPT, IPT, RT because to them they are trivial matters, they are like your off-days, your holiday camp, if any thing they should deduct your leave.
    11) This entire generation of NSMen will slowly be replaced by waves and waves of these new FTs.
    12) This entire generation of NSMen will be derided and remembered for being a lot that is always whining and complaining.
    13) This entire generation of NSMen will soon disappear, be replaced and forgotten because they are “weak” anyway..
    14) This entire generation of True Blue Singaporean men have become the sacrificial lambs led to the slaughter to preserve the institution.
    15) This generation of True Blue Singaporeans is quietly being PURGED.
    16) THIS COUNTRY NO LONGER BELONGS TO THIS GENERATION OF NSMEN.

    Period.

  125. I know it is unfair for woman no to take part in NS. But at most what we,woman can do is just to queue up and give every men a kiss on the forehead and a goodbye hug during the war time.

  126. You guys should stop fighting amongst yourselves, and save your anger for the government. Everyone is suffering, and if you can look at the cup half full, then very good I clap for you. Females are females and males are males, no point asking a girl to go to NS if she doesn’t want to or feel that she is being discriminated against just because guys ask girls to go NS (Irony). As for Singapore, it was never meant to be a country and people should not be a natural resource (Modern slavery much ?). Nothing we can do now if the government is going to hold all our money ransom. Do the next generation of Singaporeans a favor, don’t have kids.

  127. This is the very reason why I strongly believe that NS is the reason for Singapore’s High emigration rates and nobody believes me. It is hard to abolish this policy since it has been around for decades. Just a note to all ministers, grassroots leader in SIngapore, “If the system can’t change, WE will change. Since the system can’t be removed, we will move out of the country instead.” If this is what the government really wants, then “Bye-Bye Singapore!”. Its our rights to do what we like, it is our rights to do what we feel like doing, but NS is not democratic at all. If we are truely democratic, shouldn’t we get a choice? What happens to democracy in the country? NS man are also humans, we get the same human rights as the rest of the world. But why doesn’t human rights apply to NS as well? Are we not considered humans?

  128. Firstly, I have been serving NS, doing IPPT and IPT and I see all of these as a total waste of time. SAF and MINDEF call me back to sit around in my camp to mediate. More than 95% of the people attending IPT and RT are wasting their time and the nation’s resources, they are not even sweating at all.
    SAF & MINDEF have set up these demands for us to comply without the proper execution to make them effective. Serving NS and attending RT wont make us ready to protect our country. so why do it in the first place? I give it my best for every training but it can be bloody demoralising to see the rest acting like maggots and the trainers pretending like its none of their concern.

    @janice : Wake up? NS is generally bs. It wont do Spore any good. Dont believe in fairy tales.

    Secondly, this situation has been going on for years and is wide spread across the nation. what is SAF doing about it? I want to serve my nation, not waste my time. People like hoho treats reservist training like a holiday camp, how good is that? I rather be working my as* off, doing OT than sitting around in ICTs idling.

    Protecting our nation is a must but NS is not the way to do it YET. The ideal is great but the execution sucks.Spore’s foreign policy is another issue and should not be mixed with NS. With or without foreigners, we must still protect our country. Unlike others, I do not want to die for my country, I prefer to kill whoever that dares to raise//points his rifle at me, my family, my country.
    NS, regrettably, is not enough.

  129. Hey fellow males of Singapore saying female should join yall left your balls at home? Lets imagine in war times and you have your family. Do you want to fight together with your wife and leave your children at home? I mean if its a movie scene that movie would have received the least rating.

  130. I completed my NS obligations many years ago. Back then, we knew what we are protecting. Our familys, our homes, our fellow Singaporeans. Yes, we do complain, we do keng MC, but we still serve because we knew what we are defending for. We knew that jobs are waiting for us when we ROD. We believe flats, medical, transportation are easily available.

    Today, with so many foreigners, and foreigner-owned properties, can I still say that I am defending Singapore? What is Singapore? Who are Singaporeans?

    Besides the “privilege” to vote, i do not see what other benefits are there being a Singaporean. Foreigners have priority in university, polys and free scholarships. Foreigners do not pay CPF yet enjoy subsidy in government polyclinics and hospitals. Foreigners remit majority of their salary back to their home country, they are effectively shipping out our money.

    Do we need so many foreigners? I believe not, not even the foreign workers who sweep our roads. But this is discussion for another topic.

  131. i share the same sentiments as alvin.

    the least i as an active NSman, ask from our fellow female singaporeans is the recognition for the blood and sweat we have toiled in keeping the country safe.

  132. Days ago i was at Marina Bay Sands Hotel. And i met this China guy at the skypark jacuzzi. He brags about how strong china is and Singapore life is much easier compared to china. He even said all it takes is money and power or talent to be able to get into our country. His arrogance disgusted me. Him saying, if them people were to get into our country and stay, Singaporeans wouldn’t be able to compete with them. It’s all about the foreign talents causing troubles to us Singaporeans. Then again, we do need some of them, but not excessively. If not one day its gonna be Chinapore instead of Singapore.

  133. There isn’t any incentive. I don’t feel as if I’m protecting my family, if I did I would say it was worthwhile. At least pay the men more – getting stuck in camp for days or weeks, getting ditched because you don’t have enough opportunity to meet her, feeling homesick, getting shouted at or punished for the tiniest specks etc can be very depressing. The pocket money we get definitely does not balance that. Please treat us better. NSmen are also humans and we deserve just as much as everyone else. Something decent is desperately needed for all the time spent to fully compensate and bring us back to equality once we join the workforce. I don’t like to retire two years later just to make sure that I have enough money to live until I die – already got enough burdens to bother about. And all the extra obligations after ORD-ing.. recognize that many of us are just not meant to be soldiers. Our skills and talents at 30+ are better used in different industries.
    Yes, I close my eyes and go through this, but I don’t want my sons to do the same if nothing changes for the better.

  134. Simply put, 1st world country, 3rd world citizens, the only way that the system will change is that if every male in the country stops what he is doing and just lie on the ground. And the goverment will have no choice but to give in to our demands and change the system, but of course that will never happen. We will never be that united. So suck it up. Take it as a price to pay for a natural disaster free country. Simply put, 1st world country, 3rd world citizens, the only way that the system will change is that if every male in the country stops what he is doing and just lie on the ground. And the goverment will have no choice but to give in to our demandschange the system, but of course that will never happen. We will never be that united. So suck it up. Take it as a price to pay for a natural disaster free country.

  135. The important point about NS is that in a city state like this little red dot,it cannot nowadays depend on soldiers on the ground mainly because advances in military hardware like missiles,drones,as well advanced fighter jets which cannot be detected by radar,etc renders soldiers n the ground redundant.An enemy can destroy the heavily populated island with missiles and drones without the enemy even need to have their soldiers coming here.Modern warfare is now high tec .We only have a few fighter jets which will be obliterated by an enemy with their surface to air missiles plus their superiority in numbers of fighter jets.Once we loose the battle in the air,the island becomes indefensible.Just imagine missiles destroying the HDB heart land all over the island,will the NS men have the stomach to fight when they will be wondering about their families in HDB flats?
    NS was initially started when we were kick out of Malaysia ,and the government was afraid that Malaysians may change their mind about letting Spore become independent and attack us because they want this red dot back.Hence we need to have a army to repulse any attack on the red dot.Times have changed and the Malasians with a army many times bigger than The red dot,can easily take over Spore if they want to.Our neighbours have alo upgraded their military hardware which can match with ours.
    The real motive now about having an army is firstly it provides cheap labour for the government.Hence we have NS policemen who are paid peanuts.Secondly,LKY has said that in the event of a freak election,he will call in the army.However he fail to realise that our NS men would never kill its own people in case of a coup .
    ,like what happened in the Phillipines.During the Tianmen square incident China had to call in the army that were located far away from Peking.The army were from far away province because these soldiers know that their relatives are far away from the conflict.
    So the government cannot rely on the army as it comprised mainly from the men on the streets.
    So why is the government spending a large proportion of our budget in the MOD?at the expense of giving less budget to MOE,and MOH?
    This is why PM have to give privileges to the NS men financially,and other perks hoping that in the event of the people rising up against the gov like in Syria,Egypt ,etc the NS men will protect the government.
    Written by a dying Singaporean for the sake of the Y generation.

  136. After reading this blogpost and some of the comments(not all) I felt that there was a lot of extreme stands either against or for SAF…..let me put my 2 cents worth in as well,i would like to have feedbacks regarding my post too.
    First,i feel it is a must to have SG males to serve the nation simply because Spore just do not have the resources to hire and maintain a sizeable group of mercenary soldier. If serving NS would have been optional,there would not be many males signing up for it and Spore just cannot be left to look weak or always depending on allies like USA or Russia to back us up. We need a force to simply show our neighbours that Spore is at the very least strong enough to deter any threats. That said,i feel that Spore military capabilities and size forces will never allow us to win a war,not even against our neighbouring countries. We simply just cannot maintain the amount of food,ammo or equipments needed to fight a war.( war is not a 1 or 2 day battle). We will undoubtedly lose in a war but at least we can give our enemies a bloody nose in the battle. That I feel will make any potential threats hesitate before going into a rash decision of attacking Spore. (please don’t make any arguments about spore being small and we could be destroyed in an instance with bombs– Any country who wants to take over Spore would naturally wants to make use of Spore’s port,strategic location for business and our infrastures for economic interests. Spore would just be a wasteland if war is all about bombings. That said with the fragile relationships between ASEAN countires,ties with USA or Russia would sometimes not benefit Spore as it is really not their place to decide things for us lest ASEAN becomes a talking duck org.
    Second,i really dislike the idea of having a NS service of 2years (plus minus) and another reservist cycle of 10 yrs. I have been in SAF throughout,never deferring or taken any MCs. I have been with my unit to trainings oversea such as TAIWAN and BRUNEI (man they were tough) and I also completed ATEC with my unit. I’ve attended all trainings/missions/exercises with my men (yes im a commander in a unit, infantry somemore which makes everything all the more shitty). I have learned many things,things which I felt were really useful and some even toughen me up. But why 2years? it basically just forced me to drop back 2 years than my female/FTs counterparts and I felt its really a tad too much. All those things that I learned do not need 2 years and certainly not worth for me to start my UNI 2 years behind my friends. Worse in my case, I ORD in NOV which just nice caused me to miss my August uni intake,if not I would only need to be slower than my female friends for 1 year. Furthermore,this caused me to have a 8mths buffer before UNI and now I have to go start working and part studying and training so that I can support myself in this 8mths,’restart’ my studying brain and train to be fit lest I got called back for IPPT. So this 8mths is just for me to relax? No I don’t think so….Furthermore I hate the idea of a 10 yrs reservist cycle. I have done my best in my NSF so why the need to bind us to the freaking 10 yrs cycle??I mean if its 5years I probably would suck it up and do it but 10??(some are 15 btw) furthermore it states as working year which mean I probably might get called back in my 40s which is bullshit. Example: I trained very hard now and I am very very close to a gold,i get easily get a solid silver but when im 40??I foresee I might even struggle to get a pass. To those who say I should train and exercise regularly etc,please think in a bigger scenario,not everyone will have an easy job,not everyone has the basic fit body that can pass IPPT easily,some will even have a family to maintain. If everyone could just exercise with their family every week to keep fit,then I guess there’s no need for the IPPT reservist. I trained hard to where I am today but I doubt I have the drive and fitness to do it in my 30s/40s. This just mean I need to serve RTs etc and not everyone has a relaxing and free weekend to give to SAF when I have already ‘gave’ it 2yrs. Furthermore not every reservist is about IPPT,i have friends who went back to go for ATEC reservist! Can you imagine going out to chiong again in reservist in your 30s/40s??? who would have the combat fitness for such things anymore. I did my ATEC in NSF and it was really tiring and draining and boy am I glad it is over but doing it again in my reservist??NO WAY.
    I really strongly feel all Spore Males have to serve but I recoginse the drawback many will feel as a result. Starting school and work later than their female counterparts and FTs. Hence I feel there should be some actions my the government to right the wrong. For example(relax just example), why not giving more leaves and a higher pay rise to the male counterparts.If a guy can get to the same level as a women (I believe both male and female are equals in the present society.that said I do not favour the idea of female compulsory serving) in the company by going into schooling and working 2-3 years later,i feel some form of incentives should be made apparent. I also hate the idea of serving 10 working yrs reservist. I have done everything I could in my 2yrs cycle including burning my weekends for COS and guard duties( and nope they were NOT extras),I have never chao keng to take MCs and I have taken part in ALL my exercises/missions so why should I serve so much more??Once upon a time I may be garang enough to hold my SAR21 and chiong into MUTF but Im pretty sure when m older, my priority is my family and my career and NOT SAF. Please understand sometime people may just be too bust with work and family to have any more energy or time to keep fit to pass a certain IPPT or to chiong for mission once more. I hope the government would do the sensible and shorten the cycle to 5-6 years instead of 10 working years.
    These are my 2cents worth points, hope any reader would excuse my bad English.

  137. @FuckFTs – I thought it is Chinapore already?!!!

    @janice – lol, I would want to be the one giving all females conscripted to NS a kiss on the forehead and a complimentary warmth bear hug plus sumptious dinner served when they come back from war, as if your kisses worth that much of the sacrifices.

  138. I think ns should be shorten to a year. Reservist should be removed. Freedom shall not be seized. 1 year really means a lot to us Singaporean, especially when houses and car prices are continuously increasing, we need to work even harder to provide for our family as well for survival. The government should also consider these factors as well.

  139. i think the point of this article is not really the 2.5 years of compulsory NS service but rather the lack of understanding from the government, certain women or foreigners when these men have to go back for re service and are given no other option except to migrate of face jail time…
    In addition the re-servicement wastes one time and I do know that if anyone had to attend some compulsory government programme they would probably be quite annoyed so I think that people should be more understanding and not just criticize those who lament National Service but rather offer support and encouragement.

  140. so many comments here, haha =_= yeah well, most reflect my sentiments as well, and yeah.. my RT is starting soon.. and it always makes me think ORNS is a waste of time..

  141. I find it interesting that people always say that singapore is small and needs a conscript army to defend ourselves.

    Really?

    I don’t see countries like luxemborg or [insert any other small country conquered in WW1/WW2 here] panicking and rushing to implement conscription because “omg what IF we get invaded again???”.

    Actually, even if luxemborg had a conscript army in WW2, it wouldn’t have stopped the germans anyway. And the Argentinian conscripts didn’t manage to repel a british invasion despite having a numbers and home turf advantage.

    The fact of the matter is that post-WW2, people were scared and the PAP implemented conscription to gain popularity with the people.

    Considering that the only country capable of invading Singapore is Malaysia (and only because of the proximity), and Malaysia would screw their economy if they tried it (it would be like China invading the US, even if they could do it they would screw themselves), i don’t know why people are so scared of invasion. Who’s going to invade us and how? Indonesia? Indonesia can’t even handle their own rebels, how are they going to launch an amphibious invasion over the ocean with no aircraft carriers? We are not smack dap in the middle east where everyone wants to wage holy war because we arent islamic.

  142. after reading this article and all the comments (at the point of sharing) … i would like say… its not about the duration for NS . its whats happens after NS after ORD , like reservists (10cycles is abit to much).

    Another thing to point out is what are the current mindset of the youths serving now? what are they defending ? FTs or PRs who just come in and dont contribute instead just trying to change our Singaporean Cultural? like those ingrates whom the government provided scholarship and flamed us online?

    ladies, i have no issues with them serving or not serving the nation. i believed they should be more understanding and helpful towards their males counterparts when they return to work from reservists.

  143. @Janice, What history with Malaysia?
    The history where Singapore insisted on leaving Malaysia and being an independent nation of it’s own?
    Or the made up history in Singaporean history books which says that Malaysia kicked Singapore out and Singapore “begged” Malaysia to be allowed back as part of Malaysia but Malaysia apparently said no?
    Common sense would dictate that no nation would ever want to lose a part of their land, no matter how small it might seem, its just stupid to do so.

    Also, we are now in the year 2013, not 1803, gone are the days of “conquering” and “claiming land”. Yes, wars still go on, yes, but lets be honest, if the US, UK, India, or China really decided to invade Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand or whatsoever, there will be no fighting chance whatsoever.
    NS is NS, Singapore has it, Malaysia has it (although its only 3 months), Korea has it, and I’m sure there are other nations which also have such a program. But forcing a person (man or woman), to give up the their youth and a good part of midlife to protect a nation, which is only pinning them down? I don’t think that makes sense. Even more so, to protect such a nation from a virtually non-existent, imaginary threat, that makes even less sense than none. Singapore has an approximate 3.8 – 4 million citizens (not inclusive of expats and non citizens/ non Singaporeans). The Singapore army has a 72k active army personnel, out of which 35k are conscripts, and a total of +/-500,000 reserves (most of which might already be well into their mid/late 30’s or even 40’s). Now, compare this with the US army, which in itself has a 1.5 million strong active military personnel, and another 1.5 million in reserves. That’s practically 75% of the entire Singaporean POPULATION. A small fraction of military troops from other nations put together would wipe Singapore off the face of the planet.

    So, unless Singapore plans to make everyone an active army personnel (including kids) and become the next North Korea…Well, I’m sure you get the idea…

  144. @janice-Well. In a neutral way of looking at it, It is a law that Singapore’s born male need to serve NS.
    I’m born in Singapore, so I have to follow the law of my country and serve NS.
    FT’s child that is born in Singapore is a Singaporean too, so they will have to serve NS.

    And***No offense intended*** by comparing 2 genders, male has more percentage of surviving in war BUT women can serve NS as well as men.
    By the way my knowledge of “War” is not much but at least i know it is merciless.
    Enemy raping opposition’s women and other cruel things that will break a person physically and mentally.
    Which this “might” be one of the reason why government didn’t force this law onto women.
    Since one of the victim might be the loved ones of our solider and it will affect the moral deeply in war time.

  145. @Janice

    I agree with your first satement on MINDEF and migration, but not the rest of them. I identify strongly with Alex Liang and I am lucky that I got to move to Australia after my NS term.

    I hated every minute of my army experience, but I am grateful for it. I was a corporal in a counter-terrorism unit and I was serving the SOF (combat support, not actually running around with a rifle) and while the training was not that physically tough, it was a mental hell. It was literally a mind-fuck (pardon the language, but it’s the only way to describe it). The amount of protection in place for an event like, say, NDP is breathtaking. I never knew what was going on behind the scenes as a civilian. The military intelligence involved goes way deeper than I could have ever imagined, and I am thankful for that. But I can also agree that there are certain other things that the army does that is merely for a show of strength.

    I don’t agree with those who say NS is a waste of time (it is a waste if you don’t make use of it), but there is no doubt in my mind that the system is pretty screwed up. It makes no sense to me that people in the army are discriminated based on their paper qualifications and not assessed on actual capabilities. I was fortunate to be under great officers who I would have gladly followed into battle, but the majority of them that I have come across have not the competence nor maturity to handle the absolute power that is given to them. If I am not mistaken, we are the only country to hand out officer ranks to 19 year olds, furthermore without combat experience. Even 40 year old Warrant Officers have to salute these little punks and let me tell you, the power goes straight to their heads.It is a highly political arena, with lots of backstabbing, boot licking, general douchebaggery and even racism. It did give me the experience to deal with such people and such an environment though, and personally I think females loose out in that sense. Each time I go through a hardship, I just I remember that it is no where as tough as the army, and things like other people’s feces in public toilets no longer bother me.

    As to your number two statement, there is no “so many countries” that want our land, just Malaysia and Indonesia, they are our biggest threat. Our defense is designed to counter them. If I remember correctly, Malaysian ministers were making comments about going to war with us over Pedra Branca as recent as 1999. Sure, we need as large a force as we can get, but we do not need citizens to be serving half their lives, or at least, not take up so much of our time, given our small population and land space. Australia’s active army is actually smaller than Singapore’s active army. They will definitely outnumber us greatly if they conscript their citizens, but that only happens in times of war. They train their people from scratch and send them in, I don’t see why we can’t do something similar in place if reservist, albeit modified. I am spared from reservist at the moment, but I have seen how it affects my friends. They cannot apply for internships (I’m talking about SIM, not sure about the other two unis) and it is explicitly stated on the internship requirements that NS liable males cannot apply. Not that they will reject you, but you can’t even apply. My friends have shown me job advertisements that state that NS liable males are not eligible for application. There is too much wrong with Singapore’s system in general that I decided that it would be in my best interest to leave. After all, don’t you think there is something wrong when I can earn AU$18/hr as a pizza delivery boy here which is more than what my grad friends get back there?

    I believe the reason you got so much flak from the other guys is because the second half of your statements have a patronizing tone to them. Let me illustrate. While I agree that NS should be mandatory, I do not appreciate it from someone who never has to go through it. The worst was when all the families and all the girls got to go home after the enlistment ceremony while we were faced with at least two weeks on that island. It was not that it was physically tough, it was that my freedom was ripped away from me, I had no choice. I could not get up and say I’ve had enough (I could have claimed depression which I was undergoing since my school days but it would have left a black mark on my record, which would have effectively destroyed my chances at a govt job if I so desired). I resented having to pay compliments and take orders without question, from people I had no respect for (you could claim working life is as such, but I ask you, will you be sent to prison for disobeying the boss?). I hated the fact that I could be sent to DB if I failed to obey commands and the threats to our booking out for failure to comply. My friend cheated on one sit up during IPPT and he was sent to DB for three days! While in there, he told us he met a guy who was in for 11 days because he was five minutes late for roll call (bearing in mind he had done it multiple times, but still, sending someone to prison for being late?). Apparently if you are sentenced to more than five days in DB, you loose your place at local universities and are banned from attending them ever, not to mention it goes on your record. I’ve got buddies who have to go for IPPT training weekly for up to twenty weeks, it’s generally good for health, but my gripe is that they will be charged if they do not attend. It’s like going to the gym every week, but you’re sent to prison if you miss a session.

    Asking “would you rather cut your hair every year” or “would you rather MINDEF dictate your life” was not tactful on your part. I grew my hair out a year after my ORD and let me tell you, it was liberating. When I went back there for holidays, my friends would be jealous of the fact that I could keep my hair long and they couldn’t. It’s not about the haircut (I keep my hair to army standards now, it’s easier to maintain), it’s about the freedom. Living in a country that goes right down to dictating your haircut is oppression. The mere use of “dictate” already suggests a form of oppression. Does it make sense to you, that a person who has given two precious years plus the ten after (not forgetting the brothers who have fallen), be oppressed while those who have not contributed an inch to the country’s defense get the advantage and freedom to do what they want?

    People, females especially, think that the NS term is easy, and I suspect it is because of the older generation always saying that it is so easy nowadays. What they do not realize is that, it is much easier now no doubt, but it is by no means easy. My female friends never get this. I lived in a bunk that was originally designed for eight men, but they squished twenty-five of us in there, for a good part of two years. The personal space we had was less than the minimum required for construction workers (I have great respect for these people now, not forgetting domestic maids). I was literally at the mercy of power hungry troglodytes who could get away with just about anything in camp, and there was no way out of it. Again, it wasn’t that it was physically tough for me, it was the removal of freedom. My right to tertiary education was taken away, my right to leave the country as I please was restricted from the time I turned thirteen (I think it was thirteen, can’t really remember). To put it simply, why should I accept my life being dictated by MINDEF while yours isn’t?

    I am not condoning the insults that were volleyed at you, and you should not be made to feel discriminated (and not to diminish your personal daily burdens), but until you have gone through the entirety of the system, making statements like those you have made, are in poor taste to say the least. I’m sure it was not your intention, but essentially what you were advocating was that we sacrifice ourselves for your protection.

  146. SAF IB so fukin ez to spot siah

    1) perfect engrish!!
    2) disguised as women to hide behind women’s charter
    3) if needed can sue (pui ! )

    Bo bian, all hum ji one, no balls NO BALLS!

  147. The main issue that most NS and reservists men face, especially amongst NSF, is the lack of any respect given to them by most of our society, their girlfriends, the girls that they want to date and by foreigners. Everyday they are told that they must sacrifice for the greater good but are treated like scum. In other countries like Taiwan, Israel and places where there is military conscription, the conscripts are treated like heroes by society and given a lot of perks by their respective governments. However, it seems to be the opposite in Singapore. I have a friend who’s ashamed of wearing his uniform in public not because he hates military life (he actually likes it!) but because of the scorn he gets from people around him. A lot of guys will lose out on getting girlfriends and/or maintaining their romances as well. Plus they get disadvantaged in terms of education and employment as they are behind their female counterparts. Also, a lot of them are questioning why they should defend an ever increasing population of foreigners (not that I’m anti-foreigner) . Combine all this and you will create a lot of anger and resentment amongst the male NS serving population. And if this trend continues, Singapore society is going to get from bad to worst.

  148. To Janice: In fact all other countries army are better than us, If there is a b…. into our country, it will become pan-fried egg. You think by depending our army, they can make it??? dream on. You look at the marines and those those country solider that looks like going to kill the whole family kind. Serve 2 years of army not enough, still want us to go reservist and IPPT, crap… You think about it, who was the one that provide us the military information in the first place. (Tank, Plane) . The master always keep the best for themselves.

    I agree with agree with the writer, waste our time serving.. Are you kidding me> foreign invasion. We are already being invaded by who (and you should know)

    To Alvin: I don’t want this kind of honour of serving . I rather throw away

    In the first place duno who say will not open a casino , Then now what not open 1 but 2 casino and even maybe the 3 one who knows. Nowadays do you realise that people do not put N flag on that day. Plus only a certain people of race will see the parade. That is the day I will be in overseas.

    It is all excuse and fake reason. All this have be planned. For what purpose, to help into national issue on Low Birth Rate>>>>>>
    Casino : (Excuse)To create more job opportunities
    (In Fact) Open up to invite more foreigners and to increase birth rate. Furthermore, more society problem into money lending. If a gambler like to gamble a lot, do you think he/she will care about the $100 levy.

    Whatever it is, is just an excuse to cover up things

  149. @ Michael (October 6, 2013 at 11:18 am)

    Those who want greener pastures have already left for other countries. Only those who cannot leave due to some reasons will KPKB.

  150. @ CK (October 6, 2013 at 11:40 am)

    I am not sure about Palestine but I do know about Israel. The women in Israel do serve their NS which they earn their places when commenting anything about NS. Due to war torn country, almost zero foreigner will want to work & live in that country which citizen will not feel that their government is betraying them. There are more to comments. Every country have their own problem which their policies are affecting some or most of the citizens in their country, If you want to bring Israel in, will it be better to ask our women to serve NS & kick out all foreigners to being with the same ground?

  151. Dear Alvin, you should pack up and leave Singapore… We could do much better without whiners like you. I’m proud to have served 2.5 yrs. I am sad to have done my duty for arseholes like you. You are such a WUSS that you have no guts to migrate.. Hate it here? Then leave… Don’t be a dead weight.

  152. hoho (October 6, 2013 at 1:01 pm)

    Will it be better to used our time for our commitments such as family, studies, work & etc rather then NS since you agree it is a waste of time too?

  153. @all the pro-NS people
    2yrs of your life with a stingy pay of around 600 or less doing something full time, being obligated to still enlist after wasting 2yrs of my life to cancer and being physically weak. Please, I think I feel more “invaded” of my freedom,time and wealth by NS than by anything foreign. What century is this already? Even if some other country choose to invade us do you really think we can defend ourselves without help? All we need to do is maintain good relations with other countries and be humble and not walk around the world telling them how “big” we are like what the government is constantly doing im sure no one would bother to attack us. Im not saying NS being compulsory is bad, just that the obligations and length are just too much. Training dosent mean your ready for war, experience is. Half the army would probably shit their pants if a major country like Russia were to invade us.

  154. We have become a society where we no longer treat each other with respect. People like @Janice are just be sharing her point of view, but many of us Singaporean men (probably not all, but many here) have demonstrated such lack of respect to women and also to others who might feel that the NS system is good and useful. This is an avenue of discourse and forum to share one’s views, but the abuse that we as Singaporeans give each other is deplorable. It further emphasises the fact that Singaporeans are losing a sense of unity and nationhood. (Don’t blame it on the FTs, you are abusing your fellow singaporeans, it has nothing to do with FTs coming to Singapore that made you this hateful towards your fellow Singaporeans). What is the point of hurling abuse to those who believe in the system? Does it make the system better?

    Certainly, majority of Singaporeans do believe that the NS system is necessary. Abolishment of the NS system is not something most Singaporeans believe in. If it were the case, I am certain this issue will be higher on the agenda at the GE. Many here may be PAP/government haters. Are any opposition championing the removal of NS from the system in its totality? If you feel so strongly about the system, form a political party to champion this cause. Let the people decide if NS should be abolished. Why complain and refer to being born as a Singaporean a crime, and to be enslaved to the NS system? If being born a Singaporean was the cause of this, blame your parents for giving birth to you, blame your parents for not giving you a chance out of Singapore. But of course, this would be illogical, wouldn’t it?

    I am a Singaporean male who have served in the system. And my point of view is to make the most of what we have. Cherish the peace that we have, cherish the stability that we have. No point in complaining if we are not taking active steps to try and change it. While I am not saying NS is and imperative policy to ensure Singapore’s sovereignty, we will never know the actual impact of having NS for sure until NS is disbanded, and in saying that, If NS was truly important, it might have been too late by then. Many make the argument that the risk of a war breaking out is remote and if other more powerful nations wanted to, they could easily invade Singapore. I invite you to apply to stand for the next election and make that pitch to our fellow Singaporeans.

    I am proud and happy to be a Singaporean and I am thankful for what little/much, depending on your perspective, that I have. I am under 25 years of age and I do not represent the ‘older’ generation who have an ‘older’ or more ‘traditional’ mindset towards the topic of NS. At the end of the day, my hope is that Singapore does not become an ungracious society where we breed hate and ‘fight’ amongst ourselves. Let us not be selfish or self-centred, let us be respectful and helpful towards one another.

  155. @ John (October 6, 2013 at 2:28 pm)

    Are you sure your wife will be there with your children or will force to do other things for Singapore?

  156. Honestly, I really pity Singaporeans that have to serve NS, I have loads of friends serving NS and really, I genuinely feel sorry for them.

    The government is more like a dictator don’t you think? I feel that the population will be “controlled” by the government. The worst thing is you can’t even protest about it….

    I don’t think it’s feasible to live in SG too in the next few decades without a high paying job.

    What the guy did was for his and his next generations future. Do you want your children to be controlled in the same way? Certainly I would not….

    God bless to all Singaporeans especially those in NS.

  157. some of the comments are hilarious and ignorant(sorry for saying so,but frankly you are). Singapore is close to the US, true, but since when has Singapore become an ally of US? Not to mention Russia??? Hello??? Russia?? Seriously do you even read or watch TV?

  158. After reading this post and some of the comments like JY, i too have some comments about this.
    (feel free to comment about my post)
    Being a singaporean male and having gone through my first session of RT recently, i do emphasis with most of the male commentors here. Hence plz let me share with you guys my 2 cents on this topic.
    Before i touch on the topic on reservice and rt/ipt and ippt, let me bring us back to the reason why the army was started.
    The singapore army was started after singapore got invaded by the japanese during the WWII and it felt that it could not rely on another country for protection in times of needs. During those days, “men” are seen as the protectors of the family and “women” are seen as the one who will do the job of raising and taking care of the children at home.
    That was “perhaps” one of the reason why during those times, Singaporean males were “forced” into being conscripted into the army. Women were “spared” as they were seen as the weaker ones who would not “survive” in the army for those 2.5 years.

    Which brings me to a few questions.
    1. Are women that “weak” that they could not be able to go through those 2.5 years?
    2. Is it really the guys duties to protect the country?
    3. Is it more efficient to have a male soldier as compared to a female soldier in the army?

    1. Are women that “weak” that they could not be able to go through those 2.5 years?
    3. Is it more efficient to have a male soldier as compared to a female soldier in the army?
    i went to do a few research on female soldiers in the past, and found some interesting facts.
    Apart from the legendary Hua mulan , there are also some female generals in ancient china history. One fine example would be Liang Hongyu, who was a general in the Song dynasty. Her father was an army commander and did not bound her legs but instead taught her martial arts. She was noted as a woman with incredible strength and a master of archery. She was the wife of Han Shizhong, a Song general known for resisting invaders from the Jin Dynasty together with Yue Fei and others.

    From this small description of this female general, can one say that females can also contribute greatly in the times of a war if needed. A female or a male soldier is only as efficient as how efficient their training is provided. With proper training and environment presented, even a woman can be train to defend their country.

    2. Is it really the guys duties to protect the country?
    In the past, women were usually the homemakers and men were usually the one who go out to work and protect the country. Times have change since then and women nowadays play many important roles and responsibilities our country. We have female CEOs, MPs and even ministers in our country, all important roles and positions which goes to just prove that women can excel equally in all things men do. Why should it joining the army to protect our nation?

    However, Times are indeed changing to the era of computers and technology. Gone were the days of bringing my handphone, mp3 player, laptop and pda to work/school. Nowadays people just in a smartphone which can easily integrate all the device above mention into one. We have the integrated resorts as well which integrates all the major tourist attractions into one single place.

    Hence i feel the army is really getting outdated in terms of modern science. Why should we have 20 RTs and 10 cycles of ICT when you can just integrate all these stuff into one major activity? If the main aim of the RTs were to boost the physical fitness of the soilders, instead of paying people to attend 20RTs, why not pay people to do some more meaningful activities like attending a marathon with their families? cycling at the park with gf/wifes? In this manner, both parties would be happy and bonds with families would be strengthen as well.

    IMHO, these days field camps training are really useless. If a war was really to happen in Singapore in the near future, there would not be any “jungle” left to fight. Most of the trees in singapore are being cleared to make way for more housing to fit in the 6.9 million population in the near future. Why preserve those forest when you need more land? If it is for the environment, many other things can be done instead.

    Fitness should not be measure in terms of 5 stations (i belive many of you guys heard of people who can do 20 pull ups but not pass their 2.4km) and the efficiency of a soldier should not be determine over 10 years of ICT. While it is important to educate/update the knowledge of a soldier, jobs and families should not be compromise in the result of this. While there is a rule that bosses have to allow you to take part in ICT, i feel that this rule is not strongly enforce and drilled into the mentality of companies. A person career progression can be obstructed if he has ICT during an important phase of his career. Can he then blame the SAF?

    As mention above, Singapore is a small country. It doesn’t really relies on its army to defend itself. It relies on the good connections with china, US to fend of potential threats from its neighboring countries like Malaysia and Indonesia. Therefore i feel that more emphasis should not be place into our army but maintaining these good relationship with the big 2 countries as well as having peace with our neighboring countries

    There is no way that our army will be able to fend of any real attack as it is an island. Any decent army can just starved out Singapore and it would crumple within a few months. Or just drop a bomb and wipe all of us out.

    with that enuff said, i would like to end this article and hope you guys have a nice day 🙂

  159. Its just so weird that Alex is talking about FTs when in fact he himself moved to the UK. I just hope that the Brits won’t have the same mindset as us here in Singapore.

  160. Dear Readers,

    As an high up appointment in the SAF., I just want to say should war breakout in Singapore. We have the fullest capability to win the war.

  161. Dear Officer: I agree with Occifer. Having done my time as well, I don’t think we can do anything. Japan succumbed after having two a-bombs dropped on them. I can’t imagine what will happen to us if we experience the same fate.

    I think it is better that Singapore should boost it’s technological warfare/defence systems rather than force the Singaporean sons to sacrifice themselves for her.

  162. I am currently in a high readiness core(HRC) unit in the army and I just pass my 1 year mark not long ago. Just like every other Singaporean male before I enlisted, I detest the army. I questioned every thing there is about the SAF, I even questioned why foreigners do not participate in NS. I was really worried that these two years will never be brought back to me. I could do many more things with these two years. I always thought why should I protect the nation when it is always safe. I thought that we are cowards, we would never ever fight a war. I even gave up on my own country. I remember myself saying this:” When a few planes fly pass us, drop a few bombs, we would just be another sunken city.” However, it was only when I enlisted, then my mental model really changed.

    It was only when I went into BMT, I realised why foreigners will never be part of the Singapore Army. It is because of the camaderarie forged with your fellow citizens when you get turned out and run on the parade square with socks only. This I vouch is what really makes me have this “coming of age phase.” It is because I know when I go to battle with these group of people, they will never abandon me because we are fighting for the same cause, rather than fighting beside a foreign talent whose heart is elsewhere across the sea.

    Fast forward to my unit life. Like I mentioned, I’m in a HRC unit. After realising, that without us, many things can’t happen, like the HDB buildings we live in, and etc etc. (Very sorry I can’t further elaborate what I do). That is when I only realise my sole purpose in serving the nation. That is to wake up everyday in the wee hours knowing that I am doing something meaningful to keep everyone safe.

    Yes, I do agree with all the reservist men that we are wasting our time, doing ICTs and even IPPTs. That almost half my life has been given to the colour green. Maybe I wouldn’t even understand anything at all, as I am still serving my mandatory two years. I would see this as a form of plea to all Singaporean males, please continue to believe. Yes, it is difficult to work and exercise at the same time. Yes, it is difficult not to see your families when you go to ICTs. Yes, it is difficult to catch up with work when you go for your RT. Have you ever thought, that our deterrence level is so high, that it helps our economy to grow? People believes in our “total defence”, military, psychological, social, civil and economic. That is why investors are willing to pump a shit load of money into us. This deterrence is formed, forged and being made by all us Singaporeans, and that includes all the ladies in our country as well.

    You may argue again, what has the females done which makes you think they do a part? To what I feel, their existence in society when we are toiling away out in the field or in camps, is what plays a part. Imagine, no one works because everyone is serving the nation because of SAF. What will happen to our economy? It will definitely come to a stall, and this stall will in turn, have many many repercussions no? Who would be there to take care of our younger ones when they are not able to do NS just yet? (sorry if this comes off as a sexist comment, I really have no intent.) So that we are able to come home to our kids, or younger siblings knowing that they are being fed, and taken care of. Who would be there to take care of your parents? I feel these questions that I have mentioned might have sparked some thoughts now. These people are definitely not the foreign males who have taken over your role of duty as a Singaporean Son. These people are usually our, grandmothers, mums, sisters or even spouse or girlfriend.

    Think about it, when news comes that we are going to war. The airports, ferry terminals and even immigrations will definitely be shut down. Are you going to tell me you are going to sit on your sampan and try to row your way out? This definitely is only a viable option for the desperate. Imagine, you will have to go in FBO to fight the war. Do you trust someone who has never been raised here? Gentlemen, please think about this. I think this is food for thought.

    I know there will be many skeptical replies, and I know I will get accused of being “Wayang” hope to get into the good books of the government because our internet systems are being monitored. I am pretty sure if you have read till this paragraph, this is the general consensus that most people has. I am not forcing anything down anyone’s throat because as a matter of fact this is a form of perspective. I really want to thank all of you who have read and tried to understand what I just mentioned. I really hope that it will at least set people thinking and seeing things in a different perspective before really fully judging anything.

  163. I’ve done my NS, which was scary and tiring. But it was also memorable and terrible at the same time. You get to do many things that are you wouldn’t have otherwise and many even make some lifelong friends, so NS does have it’s perks. And I believe that many people do turn out as better people because of their time serving NS.

    I know that what I’m going to say here is going to sound very, very foreign for many people, but stop complaining and stop and think about what you can do to improve your situation. As they say if you are given lemons, make lemonade.

    If you are given shit, you can toss it at others, the fan, or here’s a thought, sell it to others or even the government as fertiliser. Show the world what kind of a person you are, someone who is bitter and broken by the world or you can rise up and make the most of what has been given you.

    Here’s another foreign concept. If you are complaining about earning less, don’t go out and buy the latest phone/TV/Tablet/useless junk every year and live with the two year old one you already have, take the money you’ve just saved and invest in something that is going to bring in some extra income. Many people are time-poor all over the developed world and if you stop reading about/buying/dreaming about/whatever you do with the latest useless fad, you will also have more time to spend with your family and maybe even do some exercise. Same can be said for the latest movies, fashion, TV shows, cars (if you think it’s worth it), kitchen gadgets and whatever else might spark your interest.

    Another foreign concept that will save you money. Take a page out of your grandparent’s book. Don’t buy something unless you can afford to pay the entire amount for it in cash (except for housing), and even then, drive a hard bargain and be prepared to walk away. This way, you’ll know that you really need it, you’ll know if it’s really worth it, and you’re more likely to take good care of it if you actually do get it.

    However you look at NS, if it works for you I don’t really care, but I hope that you can do something good with what you’re left with and make the most of it.

  164. Im a Singaporean male in my twenties and Im glad to have served for those 2 years, and many more reservist years to boot. and id do it all over again if i have to compensate for those who abandon their duty to protect our families, friends and home if the need ever arises. Though i pray that day never comes. Those two years brought me lessons, lifelong friends, skills and fitness that few other countries can give

  165. @Occifer @Patrick

    North Vietnam was carpet bombed for days but was not scrummed to surrendering.
    Many of it’s forces took to the grounds to protect themselves and engaged in guerrilla warfare.
    Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erZ2YidTZp4

    Japan was hit with atomic bombs sent in via airplanes in stealth.
    How many countries now have a nuclear weapons? And would China, UK, US, Russia, France want to blow up their economic interests in Singapore? And make more enemies?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons

    And Don’t you think RSAF will disable any planes before even flying in with a ton of bombs?

    We have infact been boosting our technology warfare/defense and doubling our force mulitipliers for years to be an stronghold.
    There’s a reason why we are known as the strongest military in SEA. And some people have said that our RSAF has more planes than m’sia and indo combined.

    There are more military doctrine that can’t be reveled. As the Art of War showed you don’t have to win the war in numbers.

  166. I guess some people dont get it.

    We serve from age 18(legal age) to 40s-50s(officer), NOT 2-2.5 years, get that right!(NS/ICT/IPPT/RT/IPT/OPs-manning)

    I hate getting that sms to go back reservist and who’s taking over my job at my workplace? Do you know we are on 3-4 persons job to compete with foreigners? Our boss is pissed everytime we go back camp or leave early for RT/IPPT/IPT/OPs-manning, why hire local males? They are so much “trouble”. Or do you fellow Singaporean females be conscripted to our left over work when we go back for RT/IPPT/IPT/OPs-manning/Reservist? Please say yes, or we’ll be worry. Who’s taking care of my clients/relocating resources/projects/important oversea conference/sales quota/research progress/etc?

    It’s extremely hectic in our working life, everyone is working OT, competing flaws in our gov policies. I’m not saying give us family time, we do not even have any family time apart from our work.

    I myself have received a letter from the MINDEF to answer for charges. I went through my RT and passed my IPPT but missed to take 1 IPPT attempt within 9 months of my birthday which I am not informed they changed the policy which used to be 1 year. So end of this Oct I’ll need to report to MINDEF to answer this charge which is un-called for.

  167. To xtra09

    2 years is nothing???? I am sure many will agree with me you can do a lot of things right. Not just income only, promotion,, many girlfriends or many wife etc. Furthermore you say 2 years ONLY., wah you fucking rich ah. Let say $40000 including of AWS x 2 years = $80000. Why don’t you donate to the poor since is only $80000. Don come and talk cork and talk big.

    —->ippt standards are not over bearing or over demanding… it can be passed and maintained?

    You statement refer to which type people. Those average can-do or half plus 6 or those that are bigger size . Yes those average one given with own initiative, it can be passed. But don’t you know that some people no matter how they try, they still cannot pass. They are either bigger in size or taller or shoulder problem.. What do you suggest? ask them to lose weight from 90kg to 50 kg or shorten their leg so that they can jump to meet the requirement.. Increase the length of the bone for them to do pull up or worse run and run to keep telling yourself that you can do it, is all in your mind and suay suay kena tao bio. Bong, cardiac attack. There goes you, and poor mother have to suffer the loss of a son for NOTHING.

    ——>>>>simple workouts rather than spending time on the internet to complain incessantly on not to exercise… wats wrong with doing 20 sessions in a year? think again, is it really a lot??? u mean u cant even take out 20 sessions a year to exercise? stop finding excuses. u noe u r finding excuses.

    Simple workout to you is simple. To others leh….. Is a matter want to do it anot. Why do something that you dislike doing. Not many people enjoy workout even is healthy. It can be even tiring to do after a hard hard of work. What about those doing night shift, retail hours or odd job??? Given the time, I guess they rather sleep or enjoy their day relaxing rather then doing tedious exercise. Don’t even tell me by doing simple exercise you can lose weight. 20 session not a lot???? I dare you to put a survey and see how many will say 20 session not a lot. If the many majority say not a lot, then lim bei post an apology big big in newspaper.

    Fuck sia seriously, you are very selfish person. You don care about other people situation and plight. In the post is all about you and you. Who cares about you, I just pity that your friends that might have this kind of friend.

    —>after all nobody noes whether we are able to defend the country ultimately???
    Are you kidding me? In the event of war, we sure lose out. with no natural resources, we die of thirst first before even fight for war. Not to even mention chemical, nuclear warfare. plus bomb. Plus those not willing to fight. You tell me fight what, fight with lan jiao ah.

  168. Since you’ll are so much against NS. Why don’t you’ll leave Singapore and migrate. Go live in a country without the security, safety and stability. You think its cheaper to live in other countries? Man, how wrong you are. Do you think you’ll be better off in other countries? Lets take Australia since everyone likes to migrate there. You may think its better all till you actually go there. Man how wrong can you be…

  169. To ABC; W.Z

    ——–> NS is, in my opinion, one of the most intelligent systems devised by our government. It can bring out extreme sides of all kinds of people.

    Your first sentence already gave you away. Devised by our go……, Hello is COPY not devised. Is first already formed by China people way way back. Sometimes talk to this kind of people can die.

    —-> During the two years, all kinds of things could happen. One could get fitter, learn to be an obedient slave that follows orders, make new friends, get injured permanently, spend much time doing work that is absolutely pointless, wasting time doing absolutely nothing due to being stuck in camp, etc.

    Don’t come sweet talk about the pay. In actual fact you are selling your life away to army. Outside you work 2 years, you also can get this pay provide you do sales or other senior position. Additional to talk, you can include in your resume. I served NS 2 years, I put in my resume for what, IT IS USELESS.

    However, I do agree of the bottom part that you post

  170. I have worked and stayed oversea in few countries for more than a year, I can say I like the environment and various tiny things in other countries, able to enjoy 4 seasons, etc. If my friends, family not here I’ll be glad to leave. It is so much CHEAPER to live in other countries, seriously. So much oversea incentives that you’ll laugh out loud(even spouse monthly incentives, free lodging, free 4 days tour twice per year, free car to drive, etc. If you have not been posted oversea can you please shut up your ignorant and stupid mouth? Thanks.

    Each of us shaped Singapore not the gov policies. Why fellow Singaporeans against NS we have to leave but not you? Arrogant? Or plain stupidity? Well, our gov is urging us to give constructive feedback to make Singapore a better place, unlike you Tim “Leave Singapore and migrate if against NS”.

    Btw, no offense Tim what you wrote show you are an ignorant and stupid brat. Nice day. 🙂

  171. You’re all just self-centered, altruistic people who only know how to complain. It simply is a shame that many of you boys have never felt the love for your country. If you’re so unhappy, leave. Simple. Instead of complaining all the time. The govt has such policies but so what, can’t do anything about it. Want something to change, go be a politician. You think women don’t have their own burdens in life? I am very sorry for all your wives/future wives and children for having such a role model as a father. Mothers sacrifice a lot for the family and children too, men and women have different roles and there should be no comparison.

  172. Tim…people like you are why some things never change. The blogger was talking about REVIEWING the system. We identify NS as a pillar of support for the country, but the status quo is not effective for modern social standards. “Wake up your idea la”, so to speak.

  173. To A: A disucssion about the modern day roles of men and women is another topic altogether, but i do believe that the role women play in the society today is shifting towards productivity and economic gain. So the women are screaming “we want equal roles to men!” and yet we have one here who is talking about “different roles and there should be no comparison”. no offense, perhaps you TRULY believe what you say; just tell that to the younger generation of self empowered, “strong” females who may now have higher and more ambitious goals than men.

  174. How would men feel then if their wives were the ones training to protect the country while they have more household responsibilities, which many wives today still carry the bulk of? This of course varies from individual to individual, no wild accusations or generalizations here. You boys can complain but really, ask your egos. Would you prefer your girlfriends and wives physically defending you and your country while you do nothing, which is what you say women do for the country? Nothing?
    There should be no extreme comparisons between women and men. Simply that the govt should revise their policies towards the men in Singapore, to foster greater pride in them to WANT to help protect the country they so easily live in, because of those keeping watch all day and night.

  175. @A Stop being so noble, because I know you are not. I know serving the nation is imperative but do some serious comparisons, and of course, leave out arguments that would turn the topic sexist. The government is there to SERVE us. They are not the monarchs or dictators of the state, they have to do what’s best for the country AND the citizens. Minus the fact that foreigners are streaming into Singapore, compromising job opportunities, I would be happy to serve my national service even if women are status quo. “want something to change, go be a politician”- If you want better healthcare, how about you become a doctor? or if you want a better education, be a teacher? Please think before you type, because you are embarrassing yourself.

  176. I am Singaporean, and I am female. Maybe that would discredit my view in the eyes of what seems to be many Singaporean males here, but well I shall say what I came here to say anyway, in response to this post.

    I think that defense for a country is important – to show other countries that we can hold our own, be independent, be strong. Even as some people have said above that an atomic bomb would probably totally wipe us out, this fact, to me, is irrelevant. The point of defense planning for Singapore(and probably other small countries) is basically, for show. And you’re like for show??? WTF??? Then I do for what why don’t when I go NS also just do for show la???

    No, because “show” has more value than one would think. In “showing” that Singapore can carry out a program such as NS and that we are successful in developing sophisticated military equipment, we “show” that we are strong and committed as a nation to preserving our country, alongside our economic strengths. Anyone who thinks that NS is for fending off atomic bombs, really, really?? And then some people would say it’s just to fight Malaysia. Okay. Can. And then some people are like why other country no need??? Why China no need?? Different countries have different needs and circumstances. Comparing is really just silly.

    I think Singaporeans (and foreigners, now that we have so many) as a whole can do a lot more to appreciate the men who have been through NS and are continuing to serve today. It is a huge duty and I feel that many people disregard that. I feel that we should inculcate a sense of pride and respect for those who serve and stop doing ridiculous things like taking pictures of them sitting down in an empty bus. Honestly? I would rather let a tired NSman carrying a boulder-sized backpack sit down than sit down myself. But guess what? I’d be getting his ass in deep shit cause someone is bound to take a picture of him sitting, or make some snarky comment about him being a young fit boy who is sooooo inconsiderate. -.- It is this ungrateful attitude that has permeated our society and it is what I believe to be the cause of the unhappiness and reluctance in our NSmen, because they do not view themselves as being supported by the rest of society. As to foreigners, please think about how military forces are highly respected in your own country and realize that NSmen are no different, and deserve all our gratitude.

    I think NSmen are great. I think the rest of us have to wake up our idea.

  177. Unlike other countries which at least can be seen on the map,Singapore is not even visible but only an arrow that says this point is Singapore at the tip of Malaysia.It is true that every country has an army.However in this little red dot.with a population of 3.million ,excluding immigrants who don’t serve NS,can we not reduce the NS time to 1 yr instead of 2 and a half yrs?If IPPT is taken into consideration the total number of yrscommitted to SAF is 40 yrs.Why do we have a siege mentality?Athough we are surrounded by Muslims we are not at war with our neighbors like the case with Israel who as surrounded by countries that have been to wars against them.None of our soldiers have tasted what it is like to go to war.What is the real agenda in having NS?Who are our enemies?Are we instead planning to be the aggressor rather being a defender of this red dot?Because of land constraints,it may be logical that we become the aggressor to occupy more land from our neighbors,,particularly Malaysia.Do we have the capabilities to win a war against our neighbor?
    Do we have intelligence report that we are likely to be invaded Are our NS are so patriotic that they are willing to die for this red dot?NS men are so pampered by their parents that they even ask their maids to carry the haversack for them.
    Let us be sensible and pragmatic.Singapore has nothing to offer to our potential enemies as we have no natural resources and not even land.What is the point in wasting our precious resource which is only men only?What use is manpower be of any value to our conqueror?
    In fact NS is a major push factor to emigrate for many for many families.Our women are wise enough to marry foreigners so that they can emigrate with their foreign husband.
    American soldiers don’t go to war on their home land but far far way like Korea ,Vietnam,and Japan.Only Pearl Harbour in Hawaii was attacked by Japan.

  178. A: Let’s put aside the male ego for now. ask yourself honestly. If you were to make NS for females optional; how many would volunteer? It’s the attitude we’re talking about here. it takes 2 hands to clap. I wouldn’t want to generalise either, but on the ground the feeling i get is : Men should do NS. we shouldn’t need to. and why? because men are physically stronger? That would revert us back to pre-industrial times. in that context, why aren’t the women aren’t doing their part by reproducing? Now, taken out of context, that would be a chauvinist statement.

    While it is true that a majority of women may still be in charge of household responsibilities, that will be irrevalent in a few years. The domestic worker employment rate is going up year by year,
    To discuss about this statement of yours; “Simply that the govt should revise their policies towards the men in Singapore, to foster greater pride in them to WANT to help protect the country they so easily live in, because of those keeping watch all day and night.”

    You should do some reading on the differences between a civilian army and a professional one. What we have is a conscripted system, and to “foster greater pride…WANT to help protect..” we need to juggle the social intricacies. Obviously, the high number of foreigners in our country today is a big part of that. I can go on and on about this, but i’ll stop here and see what you. All in good debate.

  179. I think the greatest problem that singaporeans have, especially singaporean men, is the lack of nationhood and patriotism. We no longer love Singapore the way we used to in the past. We have become very individualistic, adopting self-sufficient mindsets. If we truly love this country, the culture, the people, the food, and if we truly cherish the joys and privilege of living in a society that is peaceful, and stable, i doubt we will be complaining.

    Yes i agree that this system is OUTDATED and NEEDS to be UPDATED with the times. However, i would like to point out that your time spent in NS was definitely NOT in waste. You would have learned skills, lessons, and made bonds with people who went through the same suffering. You would have experienced events that the marketplace would not be able to give you.

    Yes there was suffering, there was abuse done to you. But may i suggest to you, that it is because of such difficult circumstances that would have made you to become stronger, mentally. There is no such thing as living a good life without suffering. I believe that after going through these hardships, you are more prepared for the marketplace than those who did not. WHAT i am trying to say is, your character is moulded in this process. AND CHARACTER, makes and defines every single thing in your life, not just the workplace. I’m talking about perseverence, resilience, patience, submission. These traits, are essential to live a truly meaningful and purpose life!

    For those who are stuck in the RT debacle, i truly empathize with you. I STRONGLY agree that the government should CHANGE this requirement. One commenter (i cant remember his name, sorry!) suggested mandatory participation in public race events instead and i thought it was a good idea. THIS BOILS DOWN TO ANOTHER PROBLEM: the willingness to VOICE IT OUT. Ladies and Gentlemen, we live in an era where people are capable and learned. The Singapore Government MUST be reminded time and again that we are no longer as naive as back in the old days. We can read, analyze, think, and argue. The PEOPLE MUST be given a strong voice, a loud opinion, and a strong resolve. I am NOT suggesting a revolt. I am encouraging COURAGE from all of you Men, to FIGHT for your rights. Don’t complain, SPEAK OUT. Only then will things be done. I don’t know how, but there is always a way for the government to hear your opinions. Otherwise that would mean we are in a communist rule, which is certainly not the case. SPEAKING OUT, does not mean throwing your tantrums at the govt. It means, to explain your concerns, and to suggest to them an improvement to this that is FEASIBLE, and sensible.

    Singapore, is by many international standards, a pretty good place to live in. Seriously. I was given the opportunity to bagpack uk/europe, and i realized that we really, have it too easy in singapore. Life is too convenient for us, be it in terms of shopping, being able to walk around at night, not fearing pickpockets or robbers. Singapore is safe. Yes it is strict, and highly controlling (and i really do feel that the govt should let go of certain restrictions, it is simply ridiculous). Once again, all this can change if we voice it out strongly, and in unity. I can only imagine a worser singapore if there is no NS. Singaporean boys will be roaming the streets taking drugs, causing trouble, and there will be more strayed adolescences. I have seen such circumstances in many countries and i cant help but wonder how those countries will survive when they take over the marketplace in future. However, having said that, i DO have the desire to move out of singapore in future for good. Why? The reason is simple. Bad society. We keep complaining, we keep stirring up unnecessary shit, we are too pampered, we think the world revolves around us. And the pace of life here is simply too fast. FT’s are also taking our places. This topic is controversial, and however much it may be, it is a fact. FT’s are great to have with us, but once again, the Singaporean Govt failed to control this.

    So here’s just my humble opinion on this subject. I could go on and on but i figured you would have loads of comments to read too, so i shall not take too much of your time reading this. Thanks for reading this!

  180. How many NS men have died in combat to defend our country?It is not that the citizens do not respect our NS men but we all know how pampered young Sporeans are.We also feel sorry that our NS men have to waste 2 to 2/12 yrs in the army and continue till they are 40 yrs old.The irony is that they don’t find the need to fire their gun once they have finished their army.A potential enemy can easily blockade the sea to prevent us from getting food etc.Our navy consists only of a few destroyers. And a old submarine.Can our navy really prevent a blockade ?The key to winning a war is the air force and navy.Foot soldiers are redundant in the twenty first century.

  181. For those who screams that people who complain about the system should leave, and you are unhappy with their complaints, why not you go pack up and get the hell out of here to some place else.

    If you can’t accept differing views aired, shipped out!

  182. Because of the low fertility rate ,the number of men eligible to do NS is shrinking.The females have therefore to do their part in producing as many babies as possible.Other countries have females in the army.So Sporeans women should also be conscripted to make up for the decrease in the male polulation.

  183. Very long thread of comments that I been reading, and I decided to comment.
    Personally, Had not experienced NS yet, but will soon in a few years. I have this hatred towards NS, that why must it only happen to guys , and not women, since they always say that national security is a country’s effort. Tbh, even now, the thought of me serving NS makes me frustrated everytime I think of it. Its not just that 2 years in it, but many more years due to the reservist. Its like a rope tying you to a pole, no matter how hard you try, you cant break free. In case you break free, you will be caught , tied back to this pole, whipped countless of times. The 2 years in it, will bring the girls that are the same age as us, to almost complete their uni studies. When we finish uni, they would have already started work, and far ahead of us. There’s this thought, that guys should take care of the family. How are they going to take care of the family, when the girl salary would be higher, and the guy just came out to work? Cant possibly ask every NS guy to find younger girls. That will be weird and kinda of impossible? Singapore is already a very stressful country, and NS made boy’s life worse.

    Although I hate NS , but guys, even though how much we complain and say to the government, you honestly think they will do anything to change this? Like including girls into the system? I can safety tell you NO. I been telling myself, just get in and get it done the 2 years. It might not be that simple, but thats the best way to like lessen our pain towards NS?

    IF YOU ARE FORCED TO DO SOMETHING THROUGH THE LAW, WHY NOT CHANGE YOUR MINDSET TO A HAPPY ONE, ENJOY WHATEVER YOUR DOING, GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT, THEN HAVING AN ANGRY MINDSET, AND TORTURING YOURSELF FOR 2 YEARS?

    Some might say , you havent experience it, you dont comment until it is that simple.
    Too bad, We are guys born in Singaporeans.
    And Yes, I will experience it soon.

  184. Hmm.. my personal view is nobody will invade Singapore. Singapore is not even the size of any state in any of the countries out there. Actually PAP is guarding against the Malaysia and Indonesia honestly, these are the two countries that we would most likely to have conflicts with. PAP is afraid that Malaysia or Indonesia will take advantage of us if we do not have armed forces here. Well PAP worries somehow does make abit of sense too, but I believed the western powers will not tolerate any country invading another country without any reason, and Singapore has no resources at all, even the most basic need like water is being supplied by Malaysia. Although we have a so call busy port, but I believed it is just a matter of time before Thailand or Malaysia take over the title. The only good thing is Singapore does not have any disasters, I too felt that it is unfair for Singaporean man to serve NS when the government is allow foreigners to come here and compete. Of course foreigners will be preferred by most employers, lower wages, no call up, no reservist, no RT, no CPF and etc. And it’s kind of pointless to serve NS when almost half of the population is made up of foreigners, yes of course you may put it in a way as protecting your loves one. But we have to be practical, yes protecting your loves one and at the same time protecting the foreigners as well. I’m not in the position to say if there should be NS but I strongly believed the government must get rid of the foreigners and I assumed the people will be more willingly to serve. Yes still open to talents, but not foreigners who came here with a fake cert and taking up a lower wage to compete with Singaporeans. Some ladies would say serve NS is good, but please think far. If your bf or husband is replaced by a cheaper foreigner then who is going to feel sorry for him. Oh ya I forgot local ladies are smart now, they knew local guys are tied up by the government, even with decent education it is difficult for them to have a good income to give them comfortable life because of the influx of foreigners. They are going for Caucasians now, Caucasians came here have their condo and audi paid by the company which actually transfer the cost to the workers. Of course if I have my housing and car paid by someone of course I will stand out among the local guys too.

  185. I know the importance of NS but somehow every male is Singapore feels the burden of it especially if we can’t pass IPPT. The RT sessions are just too time consuming. More and more foreigners joining my company and i have to miss an important and critical training because of reservist. Ended up i didn’t get to learn the new thing and fall behind those foreigners who do not have to serve NS at all.

    Even worse is part time studies are not deferred for reservist. Can have exams next week and still go for reservist this week. And getting called back by ops manning on a weekend when i have exams on that weekend. Constantly getting stress on NS matters.

  186. I support alex liang.Dude,Life’s too short to be wasted doin reservist and shit just migrate.Life’s getting too hard for Simple singaporeans

  187. Its not so much the NS as it is the article FOCUSING on just NS in Singapore. Even at 23 years old i do feel that it is quite a burden to have to attend the various compulsory trainings and commitment even as a student, not to mention the next 17 years of liability that will undoubtedly affect both my personal and working life. However, to discard citizenship SIMPLY because of NS would be incredibly foolish, stupid even. The article conveniently forgets to include the benefits that a SINGAPORE CITIZEN has over ‘foreign talent’ as the author like to put it. Our various insurance schemes, CPF, medishield etc. have been excellent in providing for the citizens welfare, though admittedly, it has room to improve, something the government is currently looking into. Our education is made compulsory to a certain level and HEAVILY subsidized. Significant benefits are provided for families in terms of housing grants, payouts, subsidies etc.

    True, all the ‘benefits’ do work towards certain goals that the government has set or wants to achieve, but who is to say it is entirely bad? Hell, if someone handed me money to further my education or helps me plan savings to ensure i have a doctor when i’m 60, i would not throw it all away to escape my liability of NS. I am NOT saying i love the service or support it, in fact i do agree, to an extent, that it is a HUGE waste of time and resources for me personally and would discharge my liability if i could. However, i do see the reasons why it is necessary and do not discount the benefits that it has brought.

    Ultimately, i think our views are more personal, since it depends on what we have done or planned for our lives ahead so it is difficult, if not impossible (or downright idiotic) for anyone to dictate if NS is worth giving up citizenship, or if it is even valuable to the country or not. Everyone has a choice, if you feel it is too much responsibility, a waste of time etc. then you can make a decision and live with it.

  188. I think Alex made the right choice. C.mon we shouldn’t call him names seriously, what’s wrong with leaving here. If he have a better opportunity why not, if he think he will be happier over at UK then please by all means. It is normal for human beings to go for a greener pasture, just like the foreigners here. Aren’t they leaving their country for a greener pasture, they came all the way here to work because of the advantageous currency exchange rate. Many Sinaporeans are leaving this island, government does not want to disclose the numbers to the public because they do not want to demoralize the public and thus losing the public support. Yes true in a way as in NS do has it’s good points but we can’t deny the fact that Singaporeans boys are having a unfair competition. These foreigners came here and snatched jobs from Singaporeans by taking up a lower pay, we are already at a disadvantage and now we still have this NS thing to tie us down further more. The government should really look into this rather than threatening and forcing the young boys to serve. A friend of mine who migrated to Canada, recently came back to visit his friends. We had a gathering and were talking how’s life over Canada and so on. He was laughing saying Singaporeans are really living under too much stress and pressure, they have to look after their ricebowl, look out for foreigners eyeing on their job, and entertain the NS. And somemore to add salt on the wounds, basic needs like housing, car and healthcare is so expensive here. The purpose in life for ordinary singaporeans is to work and work, ensure every month there is money coming in to pay CPF, medisave, loans, bills, installments and etc. Well if you don’t feel this way that means you must be from a wealthy family or some elite then that’s good for you. If you do feel this way then it’s natural for you to look for greener pasture elsewhere.

  189. @Janice…

    I cannot help but feel strongly against most points you have reasoned, lol, like you have dug your own grave.

    We are alr being succumbed to foreign invasions…in the workforce.

    Also, the people is singapore’s only resource. There is no natural resource for no one to take, thus no reason for invasion. Singapore just knows how to put up a show for the audience.
    i.e.; National Day..
    The only day everyone is so proud to be Singaporean is on National Day.

    Finally, i am not a sexist, but one needs to go through something to know what it feels like. Quite obviously in relation to this statement, you most likely did not serve NS, and you’re not going through what these males that have supposedly “finished” (ORD-ed), are going through. You wouldn’t even know what the men who are inside are going through. So…. really?

  190. Hahah valid point by previous comment. I had trouble reading it though, we need more engrish classes in school.

  191. All you stupid cheebye stop complaining and whining la. Don’t wish to serve N’s just AWOL lol. Actually there’s ways you can escape NS, become a operated ah kua or commit crime that would land you in criminal law detention aka internal security act aka 55. You will be free from NS and reservist for lifetime. If not you just have to stfu and serve you bloody NS. Fucking bunch of typing warriors talking big here lmao. Period.

  192. Tim

    Another stupid fool, if migration is easier said then done,Then why we are sitting here and wait for you to teach us what to do.

    No country is perfect. Both have pro and cons. Once have con, then migrate meh, then you will be very busy everyday.

    Janice & other women

    No offence to them but if you never experience it, don’t comment. Just like guys don’t talk about how women period, pms or pregnancy as a easy thing or we don’t even mention at all. The least we could do is to understand how the feel and give them encouragement or hug right. The reason why so many guys disagree the system for a reason. Pregnancy is a one-off thing and period also come in every month. We are talking about 2/2.5 years , pathetic low pay, weekend being burn off for stupid parade, N…. Day. Guard duty (Omg) these should be done by them, why us? Doing RT when everywork off is already tired enough, 10-13 cycle of ICT. We are talking not just about NS but about more than our life spend. If you force someone to do something that they don like, what makes you think they will go fight the war???? We cannot even win in the number of solider, how about nuclear, chemical warfare. As we keep repeating, one bomb is enough to kill the country. Let’s not talk about even fighting, if they cut our water supply, we are dead.

    Even Malaysia want to take our country, do they even have to fight??? What a joke right?? Cut our supply simply as A-B-C.

    Lastly to those, who are so much in so called pride honour, ask your self this question?

    In an event if a war, there is a shelter that can hold 2 person. Who will you save? 2 buddies who is good in shooting and hunt down enermy or wife and child????? (P.S Don’t have to mention going to die with wife and child, by doing so, you already betray your country by giving your life up)

    Save your wife and child. This is what you so called loyal and with honour and throw buddies to die
    Save your buddies. I salute you for being heartless and throw your family to die in order to keep the honour.

    Which would you choose?

  193. Imho

    1. Consider being generous in monetary compensation. It can come in many ways, may not be immediate.
    a. Govt can award a lump sum contribution to the serviceman’s CPF upon ORD
    b. Provide free medical benefits for all NSman until ROD
    c. Provide free education for NSman’s children
    d. Provide a generous insurance cover for death n disability for all active NSF.

    2. Consider opt-in options for combat/non-combat vocations during NSF and reservist period with the former having more state benefits

    3. Made avail a volunteer scheme for female singaporeans.

    4. Requiring new citizens to serve in non sensitive positions like civil defence and healthcares sectors

    5. Opt-in options for ippt for NSman with generous incentive of opting in.

    Conscription can also have democratic choices and with generous benefits from the state. This way all Sg males can truly feel that they are recognized citizens and not cattle class peasants.

    It’s about time future generation singaporeans reap the hard work put in by their forefathers. Unlike welfare states that give handouts to their citizens, the above suggestions are more to compensate the citizen for their time and sacrifices to serve the nation.

    My humble 2 cents

  194. Guys, I know it’s an open discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinions, but opinions like the following are really overboard in my opinion:

    “k0r0sh1ya says:
    October 6, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    After every accident, SAF justs puts on a sshow for a while until all the heat dies down and then they go back to their old nonsense. Every year, a male sporean is at risk of dying due to negligence from their superiors. So now what do you have to say about that Janice? If you really are a girl. I hope you husband dies due to negligence from the armed forces. Good luck and have fun”

    “commando lim says:
    October 6, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    I think the girls should not comment so much if they are thinking of contributing they could do it by being comfort woman for the recruits like how the proud Japanese girls used to contribute to their nation”

    Seriously, how that even contributes to the discussion is beyond my understanding and I do understand that the angst against NS is really high in some people, but… cursing people’s kin is terrible and bringing up comfort women is tasteless to the utmost.

    “Rich says:
    October 6, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    @Janice, What history with Malaysia?
    The history where Singapore insisted on leaving Malaysia and being an independent nation of it’s own?
    Or the made up history in Singaporean history books which says that Malaysia kicked Singapore out and Singapore “begged” Malaysia to be allowed back as part of Malaysia but Malaysia apparently said no?
    Common sense would dictate that no nation would ever want to lose a part of their land, no matter how small it might seem, its just stupid to do so.”

    Rich, Interesting mention that you have here because just recently, I have a Malaysian friend who told me that she was surprised to learn that the separation as told in Singapore is different from the separation in Malaysia. One would have thought it was two different separations.

  195. I’m a 17 year old guy with a brother serving NS. I’m in a poly but don’t take me for stupid or immature just by my age. For starters, those who say we’d win a war should it break out in singapore, either you’re joking, or you mean a civil war of school kids rioting against their parents. Ah well.

    Moving on! I, out of sheer boredom, read some of the comments. Maybe I’m young, possibly immature to a large extent, having not seen the ‘real world’. But I felt that Eileen made a really good comment, and its females like these that make me feel appreciated to go through/endure NS. Then again A’s comments were just annoyingly sexist. I’d go down pointing out every mistake bout your comments but i believe the people here are really decent so i shant waste their time.

    Thing bout NS is, it’s all good and well to serve NS for two years(what i feel). To me, it’s like giving back to the country for the safety, and education it’s provided me with. What I’m against is having to be called back till I’m 40+(from what I’ve learnt). To me, it’s fair to go through two years, but to take up at least two weeks(correct me if I’m wrong) a year till 40+?? That’s pretty much half my life, and THAT is really unreasonable. People live life once (unless you believe in reincarnation or sth), but having to serve till 40+ takes away precious time with your loved ones. My father is posted to work overseas. The incentives are great- a free driver, condo, allowance, but he misses my family and i miss him too. That few weeks each year when you have to go back to serve? THAT could be spent spending PRECIOUS time with your children, or lover. I feel, that two/two and a half years is fair enough, but taking up weeks up till we’re forty is pretty outrageous.

    People say that the pay is pathetic in army. From what i hear, it’s $600+. To be fair to people who aren’t that well off, they could be taking up a temp job and earning at least 1k/month, with a simple O/N level cert. My issue isn’t the money, but i think people are pretty upset about earning so little for two years of their life. My brother also tells me, he gets less than $600+, cause many a time you are forced(by SAF) to donate to a ‘charity’ or ‘fund’.

    Another thing is the foreign talent stuff. I’m not hating the foreigners, but just find the system a little too ideal for them. They come here, and enjoy a really safe environment, get a lot of incentives, and do really well. Skip NS (in the mean time they could work and earn way more than NS men) and come out at least a year earlier in the workforce, not to mention get a better job. Being a student this day and age in singapore, I experienced the pressure of foreigners increase. In primary school, i’d do well with ease, sometimes top my class in some subjects. As I entered secondary school, the large amounts of foreign students really made my marks look pathetic. Singaporeans aren’t stupid, but we just have too much competition.

    Deaths in NS: This is really tragic. I personally know one of the people who got died while serving. And it is most enraging when people make sexist/rude comments about the army boys when they SERVE you. Even more outrageous that you take pictures and humiliate them. Why? because YOU dont have a seat on public transport and they do? it’s sad many don’t understand how tired they must be having come out of camp whichever day it is. Please, respect our NS men.

    I don’t think it’s good that some guys are so negative about it too. Sure, the pay could be increased, we could get females to serve, but hey, what can you do about it right? We’ve just got to suck it up, and make the most of it. Make some buddies in army or sth, do your best in army and maybe get to OCS? But being negative won’t make time pass any faster.

    Oh and can i just say ‘singapore siao’ the people here aren’t stupid. They’re just expressing their opinion. Neither are they talking big.

    Well, I’m not ranting or anything, just thought I’d say this. Have a good night people! All the best, wherever you are

  196. Simply put , Singapore would be gone with a tiny nuclear bomb . Heck they might not even need a nuclear bomb . The only thing we need to defend is our economy , and by getting all the men to go back for reservist and forsaking their work , it’s sacrificing Singapore’s GDP per minute . Another way of putting it , Singaporeans are already not treated as priority in our own homeland anymore . We may be born and raised here , but we are definitely not treated right here . War comes , who will run first ? Or should I say who CAN run first ? Definitely the PRs , why ? They are not tied down by implications of NS . They can leave first to protect their families just because THEY ARE NOT SINGAPOREAN . If we weren’t so rich no one will have any thoughts on invading us , most definitely because we do not have any natural resources . Beaches ? Bought sand . Extra land ? Reclaimed land . Extra industries and housing ? No land . So if let’s say foreign attackers come attack us for resources , they would need more money to ‘UPGRADE’ land . So the sole purpose of people attacking us is just for our economy . We need brains not muscles to prevent that from happening . Reflect .

  197. I don’t think females should be serving NS. They have their own period and whatever nonsensical mood swing to be worried about. Neither do I think serving NS or reservist is a waste of time. True that if foreign powers were to invade us, we will only last for 3 days, or maybe less. But I believe our fire power will be strong enough to take them down with us as well. This should be good enough to serve as a deterrence to any country who is thinking of invading us.

    @Singapore Siao first if you’re gonna be that rude, you prolly won’t survive in this world. @Janice, you have not gone through what we guys have gone through, so your comments are probably one sides bias opinions. Similarly, we guys do not have monthly menstrual cycle, so we can’t say much about how irritating it is for blooding flowing out of our penis.

    Whatever comments written above, be it a no for NS or NS is a must, both has its own pros and con. There can’t be a win win situation in this case. I actually do think that NS should be made compulsory. You might call me a retard or MINDEF/SAF IB or whatever names, I still think that NS should be compulsory. However, what the government should do is that Singaporean should be given priority in jobs/university placing/anything that concerns our future.The government isn’t valuing its own people by increasing the number of foreigners in our country. You people think this way is because of the high influx of the so called ‘foreign talents’. You feel that your future is being threaten by the foreigners. The main source of the problem here right now is the number of foreigners flooding our country.

    Singapore is a nice place to live in, but only if you’re rich. The rich becomes richer, and the poor becomes poorer.

  198. I don’t usually reply to articles like this, but please, be a gentleman and (continue to) do your part. Everyone has done it and move on with their lives. There isn’t really a need to complain and complain…and complain. It may be tough, demanding, exhausting or whatever but at the end of the day, life goes on and you still have to serve, right? Nothing will ever change because you have to understand the country’s origin. We have a small population and having a conscript army is more of a necessity rather than what the government wants us to do. Stop thinking that the government wants you to suffer so he made National Service compulsory. On a side note, I totally agree with Janice’s point of view. She might exactly not understand how we feel when we had to book in on the countless sundays, but I certainly do.

  199. @kyle Weihao Yan I see….you’re from OCS. Prolly love NS a lot. I believe their reason for all these complains is because of the foreigners in our country. I don’t hate NS. In fact I love NS, the people I met during NS. But what’s frustrating is that foreigners are taking all our jobs away from us. Every weekend when I go out and just chill around town area, I feel like I’ve been warped into a foreign land. Even in school, the number of foreigners (mostly from China) is too damn high.

  200. To say the least, even some gov statutory board’s supervisors frown when its employees have to kena RT/IPT cause have to knock off early in order to get to silly camps on time. Is it truly a level playing field in terms of “life” when some Singaporean men have to spend so much time away from home, while foreigners who get paid better here can enjoy life after office hours EVERY day?

    It is time to look at our NS fitness policies holistically. The current IPPT, and its remedial systems is out of touch with what is really needed for combat fitness for NS men and the realities of balancing work life in Singapore. Instead of Chin-Ups, Shuttle Run, Sit Ups or what nots, trainings involve some close combat training or drills. Convert RT-IPT systems into fun family-events that can take place at the neighbourhood stadiums and get people to work out or play sports while having fun with their family. RELIEVE the pressure off the men to MEET standards that only ATHLETIC people can. Let the people who want to go for Gold do that, but allow others to just train in a fun, and inclusive manner for Singaporean families.

    Its time to take all these IPT/RT systems out of army camps and into the community, and integrating it as part of a Singaporean lifestyle. Singaporeans can have time with their family and lead an active lifestyle.

    And if we are serious about keeping some soldiering skills honed, make sure annual ICT at least involve some practice time at the range.

  201. Agree that this national service should be made compulsory for females too. Everyone has a part to play in the “national defence”. We guys have to go through national service for 2 years, and another 9-13 years of reservist cycles depending on our PES status, but we don’t get extra extra allowances from the government or our employers. We still get the same amount as what every working adult gets. Some of us with lower qualifications get even lesser than foreign talents. If Singapore takes the “national defence” as a priority, why are there so many foreign army officers? How can you tell who is a spy and who is not? Get what I mean? Lol.

  202. Officer (October 6, 2013 at 6:52 pm)
    We may have the fullest capability to win the war but I think you miss out the human factors.
    Those who are good will be on MC or AWOL while the worst kind will be opening the gate to enemy, joining them & fire at their fellow servicemen from SAF/SPF/SCDF.
    Base on current situation that NSmen are affected directly or indirectly by our government policies, I will not be surprise if this will happen in war time.

  203. Tyler (October 6, 2013 at 7:20 pm)

    How about husband stay at home to look after children and do household works while our wife went for reservist? If I will to debate about NSF, how many female Singaporean have a family with children to being with at that age range? Touch your heart & say!

    We do not need to talk about foreigners because the hearts of some Singaporeans for NS are long gone. Those who are good will be on MC or AWOL while the worst kind will be opening the gate to enemy, joining them & fire at their fellow servicemen from SAF/SPF/SCDF. Base on current situation that NSmen are affected directly or indirectly by our government policies, I will not be surprise if this will happen in war time. In this case, can male Singaporean do not needs to serve NS?

  204. eileen (October 6, 2013 at 8:54 pm)

    Have you ever wonder why technically China is still in war with Taiwan but they have cancel their NSF? Have you also wonder why Russia can change their NSF to 1 year even if they are surround by war torn countries? What about Singapore?

    Since my NSF time to now, I am never scare of someone taking a picture of me in uniform when I am sitting down in a public transport because I know that I pay for the fare & entitled to sit like the public. As a NS commander, I do not give a damn from the public & higher commanders’ feedback about my NSmen or myself as long as we paid for our fare & in proper attire. So don’t be afraid to share your seat in public transport to men in uniform because it is their judgement call to chose to sit or not even if someone is going to take a picture of them to comment bad about them!

  205. @ Jacob (October 6, 2013 at 9:15 pm)

    Those who want greener pastures have already left for other countries. Only those who cannot leave due to some reasons will KPKB.

  206. I am Singaporean and served NS. I don’t blame SAF or MINDEF or my parents. I blame myself for not having the foresight and proper planning to leave.

    I am 30 years old this year and FINALLY managed to get out of Singapore. I joined an MNC right out of Uni and worked like a dog, constantly checking KPI reports and performance reviews right until it was a right time to contact HR for transfer to foreign office. I’ve liquidated my flat, secured my visa and held a sinful party as farewell. It took me 9 years of strategic planning and scheming to get myself set up properly.

    Unhappy in SG? Blame YOURSELF. I was unhappy but I WORKED HARD to get out. Complaining and making so-called “viral” posts to spread on FB and soliciting likes may make you feel shiok but changes nothing.

    Don’t be an idiot and think that SG will change FOR YOU. Family, kids, friends are poor excuses not to leave. The smart people keep quiet, do their time and then leave quietly never to return.

    Only sour grapes stuck here keep whining. Do something about it. Leave. Stay? Then suffer cos you deserve it.

  207. I am a Singaporean male and National Slavery is total bullshit. If I don’t wish to be a Singaporean citizen anymore why should I still be liable to this country, before any of you comment about asking me to move out. I’ll make it clear here and that is I am moving and renouncing my citizenship as soon as I finish my national slavery.

    National Slavery does not promote patriotism but it tries to indoctrinate it into us, leaves us liable to the nation for the rest of our lives(almost). I feel not a single ounce of patriotism to this place and I can care less about it’s politics. I just want out.

    I absolutely hate those SingaTards that say that if you live in other countries you’d probably get shot or be killed. Jesus these people are ignorant beyond words, sure it isn’t as safe out in other countries but what are the odds of getting killed? I don’t know if its the influence that hollywood has brought onto these people’s mindset or they’re just plain idiotic.

    Secondly there are those Sigatards fortunate enough to go overseas and live for a few years before coming home to cry at how bad another countries are eg Racism, how tough life is there, etc. Face it retards, life’s fucking tough. If you’re a fucking pussy and can’t take some shit flying at your face once in awhile then stay the fuck home in Singapore where its nice and comfy and where your parents can babysit you till they die. In a country where the majority of the population is of a certain race then definitely the minority will face certain amounts of racism. In Singapore we(Chinese) don’t experience racism but I certainly can see it happening.

    Just making my point here as another pissed off citizen, can’t wait till I renounce my citizenship and I can already hear you patriotic people saying that you won’t need me anyway of which I very much agree.

  208. @ poopadoo (October 6, 2013 at 11:07 pm)

    I strongly agree with you on the “many a time you are forced(by SAF) to donate to a ‘charity’ or ‘fund’” part. There are some who stay out but report to camp at 5.30am & book out around 11.30pm. Unit lazy to do admin work or do not know the SOP & just inform servicemen that they are given emart cebits which is the reason why they are not issues with items. The worst part is there is no breakfast, lunch & dinner provided to them. So is their NSF allowance enough to cover these expenses?

  209. Why are you guys taking about this as if only Singaporean Males are forces to serve? I am one of your so called ‘foreign talents’ and i am currently serving in NS as well. You do know that PRs have to serve as well right? Please Don’t feel sorry for yourself and hard done by by the government under the assumption that you are sacrificing yourself for foreigners to exploit Singapore. We weren’t born here but we pay the price of enjoying the opportunities that this country opens up for us.

  210. @ Kyle Weihao Yan (October 6, 2013 at 11:26 pm)

    Wait until you are serve reservist for awhile then we will see if you will complain or not.I have NS Officers & WOSpecs who complaint to me that their unit have the modern equipments & weapons but nobody know how to used it. Some do not have enough NS men to execute simple mission. Some are throw to different units every ICT. What you see is what you get! So much for our resource!

  211. whats the point of NS when war nowadays aint even like in the past when i my grandpa was a soldier where they fought in a full scale low tech war (brute force won), nowadays its all computer based (Better tech wins every time) push a button and launch a cruise missile or an intercontinental ballistic missile

  212. @ Alan Soh (October 7, 2013 at 12:53 am)

    Those who want greener pastures have already left for other countries. Only those who cannot leave due to some reasons will KPKB. One of these reasons can be they are still working on their migration.

  213. Every human needs to eat. But if you eat trash daily, you die soon from the toxic.

    Every human should exercise. But if you overdo it, you either damage your body, or worse, die of a heart seizure.

    Which is the same thing about Singaporean National Service. There is a need, there will always be a need. But amid us are also other needs. The need to ensure NS obligations do not result in Singaporean males being discriminated, or compromised at work. The need to ensure the system does not evolve into a fetish of punishment schemes, or worse, distrust. The need to ensure that we never end up as perfect soldiers, but lowly fathers, workers, or sons. The only way through this mess is to constantly examine the system, and tweak it to be compatible with existing times and threats. A challenge that will never end.

    Which, to be objective, the SAF and MINDEF have been attempting to do so. Problem is, it is reacting so slowly. Personally, I suspect it is because of the likes of some here, like Janice, or Kyle, who upon confronted with the issue, retreat to lofty philosophies of National Defense, or stinging insinuations the likes of “everyone is doing it, why you complain so much.” Do these arguments really add to our defense? Or do they actually veer towards the concept of doing NS just for the sake of it? Maybe the bigger question would be do you think an army all with IPPT gold standard, harnessed by weekends of RT, would win a war. Or an army of men who love the country and who believe Singapore has been there for them.

    As for foreigners or women serving NS, I personally believe that Singaporean born women should serve some form of it. Any theories that women should not, in the face of other countries having done it, simply proves the ills of the NS system, doesn’t it? As for foreigners, you are most welcomed to work here, in one of the safest countries in the world, thanks to the SAF. But if you wish to become a citizen, but wish to skirt this obligationl, then you, and those who support you, are scums.

    Leeches and scums. I do not apologize for the strong opinion. And you know where such creatures belong at.

    Lastly, for those who wish to edge behind the screen of glory, honour, pride, and what have you, consider this. Why did the PM ever said that if new citizens have to serve NS, they wouldn’t migrate here? Why did MOM initiate laws to prevent unfair employment recently? Could it be, horrors, that pride and honour, and even the mythical skills said to be gained from NS, are actually rather useless in the global working world? All these rants about National Defense, why is there always only an emphasis on Military Defense, but seldom on Economic Defense, both of which are long ago grouped as equals under TD? I guess maybe it’s embracing and blood churning to imagine oneself as the valiant warrior dashing into the field to spill blood for the country. But you don’t win wars that way. I sincerely hope NS will not be the very element that ends up disintegrating the nation.

  214. @Alan Soh: I wish to state that in most parts, I agree with you. Unfortunately, for all my rants, I do still love Singapore. I suspect that often I get exploited because of this, and so you are right, it is a shortcoming of mine, and I deserve to pay the price, in some ways.

  215. dude, without a conscripted army, will there still be Singapore? btw, keeping fit is good for you, army pays you to keep fit and u still complain? ippt birthday wishes are telling you that govt is prepared to give you $400 as a birthday gift, why so pessimistic? dont blame army dude, everyone did their part serving, so stop whining and give your best in protecting your country.

  216. I agree with the need for national defense. I despise the low priority given to our lives.

    If you study anywhere other than NUS, NTU or SMU, you get a big FUCK YOU when you reservist knocks. There should be 0 exceptions why we can’t defer when we’re studying, no matter what we’re studying as long as it’s during our course. It’s fine if it’s during holiday but the disregard for our personal lives is stunning.

  217. I propose retaining the mandatory 2 year service to always maintain an active defence force. On top of that, form regular battalions/units as part of a professional army.

    After NSF’s complete their 2 year cycle it stops there. Only units/individuals that did not perform well will be liable for reservist training. This gives people motivation to serve their 2 years properly. The problem is, how do we properly define “perform well”. While i propose combat units to achieve minimumly redcon 2A (maybe a revised grading system is required?) before passing out and “clearing” their NSF time. Other vocations should have their respective assessments. Medically unfit personnel like clerks should also have a method to assess their performance/contribution during their 2 years. Paywise, adjusted according to the vocation and position held. This way, people in “tougher” units do no feel unfairly treated.

    Roll in all the 10years+ of IPPT and marksman incentive that is meant for rewards into the NSF’s pay or the regular’s pay. Downsize the army. Use that money to upgrade the facilities, equipment and training of the laughable 3rd Gen army.

    For the regulars, send them often overseas for training to keep them relevant. Be it actual ops, or training with other countries. Likewise, host other countries with out improved facilities and equipment to demonstrate “deterrence” Why are anti burglary alarms sirens placed in obvious locations? To deter. No point hiding your defence force. We all know that deterrence is only as good as the enemy can see. So don’t hide our “advance army”, don’t bury all our problems or flaws. Shine it up, display it out and show to the world that the citizens are part of National Defence by actually listening to them.

    It will be difficult for enemies to gather intelligence on how many “reservist” units are actually on the list. Of course during an actual button press, all males will be called back to serve. So the actual liability that is consistent is updating NSPortal on your contact information. In reality if there is a war coming, we will know it (probably through facebook/twitter first even). Having said that, it’s not realistic that the entire Singapore male population gets mobilized to repel a threat. Imagine a national level “mob manning” exercise. It is a logistical nightmare.

    My point? You don’t need such a large reservist force. Just those who did not perform well and keep them in check. They will feel the pinch, they will bitch, but eventually they will encourage their peers, and family to serve well.

    Some food for thought; If the government was replaced overnight by an opposition, will national defence be any less important? If the new government kicked out all foreigner, made cost of living lower, will you be more motivated to serve your NS liability and more? Will you pass your IPPT/RT and maintain a healthy lifestyle even you made money “easier?” This is not a criticism to any comments and there are also many other aspects of NS that i did not mention.

  218. I was just wondering. What would happen if all of you, displeased participants in this forum, were to form a community and stand up to the system together? Not to create any political demonstration, but to introduce a voluntary system for National Service. (Just saying)

    I think it is ideal for men in Singapore to serve the nation for 2 years, to familiarize a scenario of a warfare but not practical for the remaining 10 years of reservist. In my opinion, when we are put in a confrontation of war, i believe we, men have a basic instinct of being protective and thus, fight for what we love.

    There are no cowards in this world, just choices. If we are stripped off of our choices, what are we left with? Limitations. We, Singaporeans are striving to keep up with the economy. We are disgruntled by our pay schemes, our population, our traffic, our rules and regulations, practically everything. And my question to all of you is, WHY? Would changes do any good? Would we really adapt to changes? Would everyone get good jobs if they do not serve the nation? What about complacency? What about teenagers who did not believe in studying hard and eventually fall prey to peer pressures of bad influences? All of us had a choice when we were young, to strive in education, regardless of a neighborhood school or an elite school. All of us started from the same educational level. Think about it, CHOICES.

    What i am trying to get at, is the fact that we have choices in our lives. Choices not to be prejudiced upon on what is right and wrong. If the system is transparent, there will not be flaws in our constitution. We need a leader that is not obsessed with money, power and reputation. Sadly, these people are restricted to limitations, If you know what i mean.

  219. Pardon my opinion here, but thinking about foreign invasion and such; I feel that Singapore is lacking of incentives for other countries to invade. We have no natural resources, certainly no land and no treasure. There’s simply too much cons for invaders to attack us. In fact, more unnecessary money and lives are spent invading us because we don’t really have something valuable to offer.

    As for my point of view on NS, sadly I have to agree that it really is a bummer to stay obligated when you want to do what you want (pursue a career overseas, being a musician etc). I personally strongly believe that income is jeopardised as well; especially when one is really lacking of money.

    This leads me to my little rant on CPF as well. No matter how I think, CPF is a system full of crap. The factor which you cannot withdraw and use your own money at any point of time is enough to prove that CPF is rather unnecessary. Savings for retirement? Allowing us to only draw a small amount of money, bit by bit when we have no job and retired already is total rubbish. I’m better off, way better off solely busking on a street and playing at bars than to wait for my papa to say “yes” before I can take and use my OWN MONEY, that I EARNED with my OWN LIFE. A part-timer at a supermarket earns only $600, 6 days a week after CPF in a month. Add in two part time job; $600 a month plus guitar teacher at night 3-4 times a week = at most $800 a month. My family and I will most likely starve to death before I can retire and draw out that meagre sum of money. Worst still, touch wood; something nasty happened to me and I’ve incurred a lot of medical bills. Add that bill together with the other bills: Housing loans, Electricity and water bills, transport fares, school fees for my kids, money for my ageing parents etc.

    Housing? Don’t even get me started. A bomb shelter that is probably going to be frozen forever and never used in SIngapore, is taking up space in my house for my family; even in the event of an invasion, the HDB flat would probably fall and collapse, and we will meet our doom anyways. Hell, staying in that tiny bomb shelter will probably suffocate us or become our coffin when the building falls. Not to mention that delicious “atas” price tag on the flats too.

    Think people. Think hard, brothers and sisters.

  220. I’m 34, and have completed ALL MY NS DUTIES (including reservist liability). I can’t name 1 good thing I got out of NS. Hmm… I think that should speak volumes of National Service.

  221. If this FT can come and get their citizenship and PR here, why not ask them to serve their NS once they convert to PR or Citizen of Singapore?? Most funny thing is, after they make good money here, they will just return back this citizenship and bring the money back to their country.. well that is great.. they go back and they could afford to live in a BIG gd house and we SINGAPOREAN, can only afford the high living in a gd SMALL hdb flat.. kuddos to the Govt’!

  222. I am so sad to read all these comments from the men of SIngapore. I have high regards and respects for all the men in uniform knowing that they are there to protect, to save and to defend those who are weak and are not able to defend for themselves. But, it looks like we have already lost the battle.

  223. I believe in protecting what I value… but right now the most efficient way, if war ever comes, is probably to shoot the officer in the back and steal my gun back to where my family is and go rogue instead. Because anyone who has ever served NS and reservist would know how goddam moronic and stupid the SAF does things. Die for your country? Realistically I think if the button is pressed we’d have more military casualties from incompetent command and logistic/equipment failure than actual enemy fire.

    I agree with Shawn. No one wants Singapore. The only reason we might go to war is because one of your much loved MPs said something stupid to offend our neighbours.

  224. hey janice , you are trying too hard to be a keyboard warrior. You never been through what we guys been to and you dare to have the cheek to say all these craps . Just shut your yellow housewife face and roll back to your cave la .

  225. Americans have no conscription but many volunteer to join the army when the country is involved in a war like Iraq,Korea,Kosovo,Vietnam etc.The American soldiers are fighting a war far away from their home.They go to war not to defend the country but to counter communism during the cold war,but most time they fight and sacrifice their lives for their ideology in Democracy and to prevent genocide in other countries.They are patriotic and proud to be Americans even though they are like Spore;Multicutarism,multiracial and multireligion,secular and consists mainly of immigrants from all over the world.What makes them so patriotic is Democracy.The government is by the people,for the people and with the people.Spore on the other hand is the government knows best for you.
    People tend to misinterpret giving alternative view points as complaining.NS is not cast in stone.Circumstances when NS was essential,in the late 1960 and 1970 have changed.
    We should emulate the Swiss NS which is more appropriate in the 21st century.
    It takes more than 50 yrs to become a nation.We are simply just a tiny city state,and compounded by the inflow of immigrants who are granted scholarships,etc,makes nationhood more difficult .
    It is ridiculous and stupid to ask Spoeans to leave their own country if they don’t like some Gov policies.In Australia,the previous PM ask immigrants to leave if they can’t accept the Australian way of living.

  226. Served the army for 2 years little compare to those who serve for 2 1/2 years. I do not mind giving up 2 years for my country heck I even kinda enjoy it as I get to know many great guys and had lots of good memories. But one thing I hate about NS is that I have to do RT just because I can’t run, even during my training my worst is 16min and best is 13min and that is still counted as a fail. Even till now when i ord’ed working close to 11Hrs a day 6days a week even during my off day I still have to go for RT/IPT.
    @Janice If you didn’t serve the army please shut up about it as you will never be able to see from our angle. Try having your bf/husband leaving early in the morning and come back 10Pm+ at night just to lay straight down in the bed without talking to you, heck I guess you will just say that “You have less time for me now!” which was what those GF said to my friends to use a breakup excuse. If you’er trying to say that we are not fit please continue to shut up as I have friend who got gold in every station and not able to do standing board jump, so his unfit cause he can’t jump far?

  227. @janice. Go dig up some ground and shit under some trees while having your face covered in camouflage with flies buzzing and poking your anus. Then bury your shit with the ground you just dug. Do this at night. Torchlight barred. No water.

    Do this then we can talk about NS ok.

  228. @ Mother of Two
    I am also a mother of 2. I am lucky to have married a man who fulfilled his 2.5 years and faithfully reported back for reservist yearly, never did RT as he always strive to complete his IPPT in gold or silver and MR-ed at the age of 33.
    He was so proud to have received the Hamilton watch and the Medal. *ignoring the value of the watch*.
    To him, it was a small token that “ah… finally finished my duty to SGP” *though he felt the tokens were lame*
    We had our first kid when he was 32. He was already a flying employee who requested him boss to allow being grounded after I delivered for a year.
    Having said that, I was an independent woman w/o maid, w/o family help. Both sides parents were working full time. I hate having to deal with whinny baby all alone esp in the night. I refused to work OT cause my husband always tell me, a woman’s place is at home. Working is just to earn some money for self & family but ultimately we must place our family in priority over work.

    I used to hate NS, I knew my husband while I was schooling, he was in NS. All those 9 dating years when he had to travel to Taiwan, Australia for reservist for 2 weeks. But he has never failed to remind me that this is necessary for the safety of Singapore. BUT, he has always lament that why women don’t need to serve.

    If he was the decision maker, he would have made everyone serve in their respective skills area. Eg: women – medic / clerical
    men – std training
    He feels that NS makes us stronger mentally and physically. All those “Princesses” out there should go NS and they will be regular people after they finish.

    Now with 2 kids, I told my son (5) proudly that next time, I hope you can go to OCS and make me proud 🙂
    I’ll probably enlist my daughter (16months) in as a medic when her time comes too.

  229. i feel that serving the 2years full time NS is fine, it was the peak of our male health anyway, good to keep fit also. however they really need to review the reservist system and ippt system.

    the only reason i can think of why we need to do ippt/reservist is because singapore want to show numbers that we are great defense. BUT… everyone knows that how can these fat fat skinny skinny bellied/tired uncle fight war with fit and trained enemies? i believe many will became flesh wall instead in war. well i am comparing NSreservist vs enemy that are paid to be fit.

    how about setting it to below 30? from 21 to 30 yr old, every male will complete the reservist cycle? it is the time where we have energy and still in shape. and to those who actually dont like to serve the nation(be it NS full time or reservist/ippt), its your choice to think it that way but i must say you are not a patriotic person. any patriotic person knows that serving the nation is serving the nation, be it that the FT benefits more or not, this is our country and we protect it. end of the day, suck thumb ll you still live here because this is home. you still have to fight for your home.

    my 5cent worth

  230. come on dude.. the system is flawed , but what here is a whole nation on our hand, yes we do not have war at the moment , but who can ensure that peace ….think about it …our peace is ensure through the system , and when your time is up, others will do their part ..so there is no need to fuss about , but hopefully that you will be encouraged in the slightest possible way … cheers mate

  231. I’m not a Singaporean but I love Singapore. AND as I read it, its not a modern slavery. Its one way of serving your nation and fulfilling your duties and responsibilities for your fellow Singaporean. And I think your government will not make way or rules that will be harmful to its citizen, but they just wanted that all his citizen is worthy and productive for their country. Unless otherwise your so really really lazy not to serve your family and your government so your really have to find place that will really fits to your desire and freedom that you want to take. But for me as a regular visitor and experiencing the Singaporean life from time to time as I visit my sister and other Singaporean friend, I salute to its honest and their effective way running their government. Majulah Singapora!

  232. Free rider issue in economics – more and more of the security burden is placed on a diminishing resource and base of Singapore men as there are more foreigners in the country. Either make it less onerous or expand the base to make it more equitable – women and foreigners? It’s like taxation – everyone who benefits from the security should pay tax, not just a narrow defined sub-section of the population who don’t even have a choice.There are 5.3m in Singapore of which 3.3m are citizens. Assuming that half are men, only c.30% or less than a third of the total pop are “taxed” by conscription. That sounds like a very narrow base to me. Am not against foreigners as that is part of globalisation but the system as it is set up is stacked against the unfortunate Singaporean male….

  233. Fairness? Meh, as long as you live in this world, there is never fairness, every single human operates based on their own discrimination, everyone without fail…There is always a tendency that people will “sacrifice” or ignore other people’s feeling just to satisfy themselves or achieve their goals and in this case, I shall be using both you and Singapore Government as arguments.

    Firstly, Singapore Government, the reason that they made NS compulsory for guys is basically because Singapore is weak since the start due to the massive disadvantage we have regarding the land spaces and population compared to other countries. However, how did we managed to come so far without this short span of half a century even though we have a small amount of population? Simply because we “imported” foreign talents and also making our society more competitive in order to catch up, this is why a simple diploma or degree brings you nowhere in Singapore. Although it is a fact that Singapore can easily eradicate this issue by CONTROLLING their FT imports, BUT as everyone knows, Singapore Government have a very strong pride and want to be the best and first in everything. (The typical Singapore Kiasu value). As for NS, as mentioned that Singapore is already weak on land and human resources, it is necessary to strengthen the defense with whatever we have. True enough, why guys only and when even when you’re 40++, you still have to go back for reservist? Sorry females, but I have to be blunt here….guys are stronger and more fit compared to girls in general and thus the time and effort to train us in order to become combat fit will be lesser compared to training female soldiers instead, as I have been emphasizing, Singapore has always been low on resources and so we truly do not have the extra resources/effort to train female soldiers unless our male soldiers are super soldiers compared to the other countries, in this case, we might have the extra resources to invest in the female soldiers.

    Secondly, you’re not the only one who have to go through this NS shit, or the 2-3 years gap thanks to NS…every single guy have to go through and we have to start our “new life” with the same disadvantage as everyone, but you should keep this in mind, who was the one that fed that mouth of yours while you were young and powerless? Your over-protective parents and Singapore, why did I label your parents as over-protective? Once again, sorry but I have to say that you were unable to accept any harsh facts or destiny laid down to you, and you’re always there thinking about the despair and negative things you have been through, which just simply signifies that you are UNFIT to solve or accept any harsh environment laid down to you. As what I have know, I heard a lot of my uncles, seniors, cousins, relatives and friends complaining about how harsh their training were in NS, but instead of hating their NS life, they were grateful to NS as NS actually changed their life significantly where they were to find “brothers” they could trust and rely on, since they have braved through the hardship and suffered together, the bonds between their were basically unbreakable. Not to mention that some of them were also thankful that they were able to learn the value of “gratefulness” where they realized that all the household chores and shit their parents had gone through, which they initially took it for granted or found their parents irritating instead of being grateful.

    “Nonetheless, if I ever choose to migrate out of Singapore. MINDEF and SAF are highly responsible.”

    In simple, the reason that you decided to leave Singapore was never due to MINDEF or SAF, but it was due to the weakness of your heart where you always have the tendency to balance pros over cons as if you were a indiscriminate scale. Sadly, in this world, as long as you’re scaling responsibility, relationship, family, hardship, education, time and other intangible elements, that scale of yours will never stay balance as your scale only measures the numbers of pros/cons present instead of the VALUE of the pros and cons. Life is never a game nor was it a Science project, you have never measure your life, or anything you gained/lost in your life as if you are measure the mass/weight of an object or whatever other stuff as if you were measuring them in a Science experiment/project

    I don’t care if you find that I sucking up to Singapore Govt’ or I’m a loser for not trying to venture out of my comfort zone. What I find most important is where I belonged to, my very own origin, the place where I am born and raised, not the origin where my family came from. If there ever come a chance where the Govt’ ask me to die for our country, I would do so with pleasure if my action could save the country, the place where it held my precious memories with everyone I have spent my time with…

    P.S. Currently I am still studying and yet to join the NS, so I do not understand how tough life is right there, but I believe that since there are so many predecessors completed NS safely, normally and leading their life as usual, I believe that it is a do-able milestone in life, a Singaporean Male’s life diary

  234. just my 2 cents:

    1. i believe the government is doing what they can to keep singapore growing, that explains the FT issue (if you study econs you should know what i meant here but obviously you don’t thats why you are ranting)

    2. i served, and i believe the experiences we can get out of it are invaluable. i mean, unless you are thinking of chao keng for 2 years, you will learn something useful. even doing shit work makes you learn how to tolerate nonsense, thats what the society is isnt it? if you are going to have this type of fcuk up and pessimistic mentality, i bet you will be unhappy about every single shit thats going on in your life.

    comon, singapore is OUR country, who can best defend it other than singaporeans? i understand the part whereby the government is treating the FTs better than us, i hate it as well. reservist is to many, a great way to escape from work and catch up with your “brothers”. i enjoyed it though. and yes i agree ippt is a chore but this is all for the defence of singapore.

    i always see ns as a way to protect my family and country. i do not want history to repeat itself, and i think you do not want it either. so stop telling people ns is a waste of time. this applies to everyone out there in singapore unless you are some fcuk up fag who wants to see the scene in WW2 when the japanese killed your family.

    dammit. comon guys. seriously?

  235. NS was designed purely to keep the male Singaporean “in-check” post WWII and instill a purpose, vision and ethic in them…in essence, to make them Singaporean and get them on the right path. It is now 2013 – the education system has improved, social morale and moral standing has changed (for the better) and laws have strengthened to ensure Singaporeans abide by the law of the land. Keeping males “in-check” is no longer required. Full stop! That’s what we have the Police for. The likelihood of any foreign invasion is so remote, it beggars belief – and if it ever happened we have the Defence Force to look after us. Yes, there is a Defence Force in Singapore – people who actually sign up and become a soldier, airman or sailor. They are regulars in the DF. It is their “job” to protect Singapore. Not the 18 year old from CCK who has been forced into NS. Which makes, NS, totally pointless in all aspects. It really is time to burst this little bubble of NS torture and sign up for big boy school (get in the real world). Countries like Israel, who actually have enemies who want to kill them, should be the only one’s who need to adopt NS…not Singapore. Leave our boys alone and let them live their lives. Stop mothering these poor souls and let em fend for themselves.

  236. I agree. I cannot detest the NS system more, and it is responsible for making me feel a lot less patriotic towards my country. I shred all the spammy NS newsletters I get and I have not watched a single National Day Parade since I ORDed. It is too difficult to love a country which subjected me to two years of being reigned over like a slave by complete idiots who could never amount to anything in civilian life and still insists on calling me back once a year for more of this bullshit.

  237. No army – cannot, every country should have army.
    No NS – cannot, too few people willing to volunteer and be soldier.
    NS, but no reservist – cannot, if war happens will the reserves be ready?
    NS, reservist but limit to 5 years not 10 year? – cannot, system cannot be override by citizens
    Status Quo – cannot, no respect, waste life, after 40 still must pass IPPT, need to compete with foreigners and girls for jobs. HOW CAN!?!?

    It looks like we have reached an impasse… Let’s wait for the lightning to clear the path. wink*

  238. Dear Singaporean,

    Let me tell you to face the truth that your country is a very, very, very, small country.
    do you understand that with the size of your country, it will be very easy to destroy you? As I would love to say that the only thing that makes you champion until today is actually your TOURISM, whereas, donated by Malaysian, Chinese, Indonesian, AngMoh, etc. Secondly, because of your country is so small, that’s why it is very easy for you to take care of the safety, etc. Therefore, if one day one of your neighbors want to actually make slave out of you physically, we can.
    Truth. We can and it is very easy.
    Do you know as well, it is very common that once it gone war, Singapore no need to be considered as it is very small, thus, they will eventually joined Malay or Indon with their money.

    See how others underestimate your country?
    So ya, please do army, show us that you guys are not worthless nor you guys are powerless. Eventually I would say that most of males in Singapore often act like a pussy back then. After year I came back again, I see army boys every where, I heard lots of mother proud of their sons after army eventho they are sad to see you guys left.

    Sincerely,
    been tired of hearing singaporeans complain.

  239. What I believe is: NS is a must, we are small, vulnerable. Whether we’re capable to defend in time of crisis, we’ll never know. At least we have the bit of experience. But when it is a must, it must be done correctly. Now, lets look at the FLAWS.

    Mindset: As all era of time with all war-effective country/dynasty. Key thing to win: Have an army with honor & respect, then army fight for their country. Reward what is due.

    Reward – fairness economically:
    2-2.5 yrs of service, monthy ‘salary’ lower than market value. Most female counterparts & FTs getting at least twice our ‘salary’. If you say ‘its our duty to serve’ hence this miserable amount. Isn’t a government’s duty to serve, if so, perhaps we should look into salary scheme? 2.5 yrs of experience on resume & increment when job hopping. What can NSmen put – 2.5 years of brushing boots, cleaning our rifles? NS should not be TAKEN FOR GRANTED, we should be taking whats fair. Look at history, what happened to army who are not well-rewarded – it would be lucky if soldier hide/retreat, worse could happen is to turn & shoot the own army.

    Honor: Every family honor those into the army, even movies show such touchy scenes. Leaders honor his soldiers. Here, we do it differently. FEAR is instilled in our mind for the system. Go ask around, why do we serve? Fact that its compulsory shows citizens aren’t ready for this sacrifice. So, government should emphasize on educating such honor for serving. Not focusing on FEAR factors: Monetary fines, jail terms, block weekends, reduce precious time with family (RTs, 1 week of re-service can be 3-4days, I’m sure those who served knows. Cut the bullshit Hi-Key & stop exploiting on numerous low-keys) Yes, disciplinary actions are needed but not to spam foolishly.

    Lack of respect: NSmen as marketing mockeries – picture of NSmen brushing shoes of a civilian, civilian gives command to a fake platoon of soldier? Even female counterparts/DJs opens up debate of them being ‘capable’ to take our responsibility to serve & questions our sacrifice to the nation. ‘Aunties’ scolding NSmen for taking a seat in MRT. Small incidents but clearly a sign that WE are taken for granted and not respected.

    We criticized new NSmen being too pampered & frail (maid carrying bag) etc. Look into their minds, they’re thinking: Nobody gives us a shit. Everyone else, females, FTs claimed can do a better job by mouth than us but are NOT doing it. I’m just part of a system, why should I bother about my own integrity, honor or respect. Pillar crumbles because foundation is weak.

    To conclude: Ironic words in army: ‘Serve and Fxxx Off’, ‘Go through motion but nothing learnt’, ‘We are the lowest life-form’, I’m sure NSmen heard of such words before & probably still in practice. I wonder if our system understand them….

  240. In the past my FT boss got a letter to volunteer NS since he has become a PR. I asked him “do you want to?” his reply, “Stupid people only volunteer. I rather hold my PR than citizenship” lol.

    NS is ok la. But the whole ICT system is not. Just takes too much of our time to shine for the company we work with. Even 4 days ICT also my boss make noise. But the promise part where they said once you finish NS, your NS cert(Forgot what that thing is) can be use to get a better job depending on your performance during your service. Yeah right, It was a lie.

    For FT, I do not blame them. They were baited by the Govt to come to this country. I asked an FT colleague of mine and he said that when the Agent offer them job in SG, they promise can get roughly 3-4k per month. Also Singapore is a CHINESE country own by Chinese govt. Any other races are considered BANGLA level. Chinese Singaporean are regarded to them as traitors for running away from China, yeah they actually call your whole ancestor traitor la. lol.

    But this is what they have been fed with. All these false information. So you know now the reason why a large sum of FTs are rude to us yeah?

    Then when the problem arise, Govt told us to integrate with the FT. Yeah, with the fucked up mindset they were fed, we be probably looking like a slave to them.

    Even when I tried to find a new job, I had to compete with a meagre salary. I asked why, and was told FT can take small salary, nowadays must compete and show whose better. WHAT? with a small salary? They keep half of their salary still can exchange x5 or whatever their currencies stated. Me? still with the same amount la…have to survive and compete??

    Our Govt minister and big shot can get quite amount of salary (x180,x11) compare to us. Yet what did they do? all for the cause to suck up to us so that we can vote for them in coming election. Then when they are elected they went MIA. Left 2 more years to Election again they will surface and give promises. Still most of us vote for them.

    Give us incentive la, GST bonus la. When given. GST go up. Electricity went up. Yes they give, but when they take back, its more than what they given. best is when end of year, can see Traffic Police work very hard to FINED everything and anything for bonus. If a Snail has license plate they also can saman la sia for being slow! cant blame TP, its their job…during end of the year ONLY.

  241. I wonder how many here actually realize that there is a massive difference, even a complete difference, between the need for NS, and the need to improve NS.

    Most, if not all of those that assaulted Alvin immediately assume that he is asking for NS to be abolished, when he made it quite clear he isn’t. Worse, some rain accusations of the usual sort, he is complaining, he is this, he is that, etc.

    Which makes me wonder that if these folks have such low opinions of fellow Singaporeans, and that it is so impossible for them to even attempt to empathize with another Singaporean, would these people really sacrifice their lives to defend Singapore in times of military war? I find it hard to believe.

    I don’t know about Alvin, and in the case of Alex Liang, since I long read his postings elsewhere, I suspect he migrated for another reason. But for me, if I am forced to leave Singapore, it is because we have devolved into a population of such malice.

  242. I believed we have to be more practical in life la, don’t really have to talk until war all these seriously. Who will attack us, well the two countries I can think of is either Malaysia or Indonesia lor. And honestly our army is to hold out until the western countries came to our aid that’s all, yes somehow we have slightly more advance weapons than Malaysia and then so what. We can throw all kinds of bombs and missiles on Johor and then? Malaysia can afford to lose Johor, just Johor itself is already many times bigger than Singapore, but if Singapore is being bombed that’s it, full stop end of story don’t have to talk so much already. And Singapore population is all crowded together, causality will confirm be very high. Why do we have air base in Aust and Taiwan, because PAP knew Singapore is too small already. Malaysia can take the bombardment because they are big, singaporea cannot take any bombardment that’s why they park their fighter jets else where incase air fields are destroyed. But anyway I believed we are abit far from topic, you served NS, attended all your reservist, go for your IPPT, turn up for your recall and one day you are replaced by a foreigner or your salary cannot cope with the high living cost PAP will not come to you and said I appreciated what you contributed to the nation now I am going to pay your bills, loans and installments for you. You are on your own, like what the PAP said nobody own us a living. So since that’s the case it is normal for us to think for ourselves, it is perfectly normal for us to ask for a fair playing field with the foreigners here. Since the government will not help us and they have to help themselves then of course NS is a hindrance to them. Some will argue that NS is good as they picked up some experiences and skills, but from what I know many regulars came to the real working society their so call skills isn’t really useful. And that is why many of them don’t dare to step into the private sector, because the skills they learned is irrelevant to the real world outside.

  243. i am delighted that singaporean had awaken and maturing. it is a step forward and hope we dont take another 50years to reverse what were wronged to put them right. i hope that one day i will have the same old feelings i used to have for singapore before we notice there is no longer a place called singapore….

  244. Some NS men come from very poor families.They can’t earn a living after their studies as they have to do NS.Is the NS pay sufficient to support their parents and maybe their young siblings?
    Ever wonder why there are so many ministers who are recruited from the SAF and Drs from the public sector?How is the training in NS relevant to politics?Similarly do drs make good politician?
    The profession that has the most politicians both locally and globally esp the US are lawyers.
    Many of you are unhappy that FT do not serve NS.FT are very clever because they know how to avoid getting drafted by leaving their children who are eligible for NS remain in their home country.They only bring in their toddlers and before they reach 12 yrs old they are sent back to their home countries.Only FT who are above 40 yrs old will come here because they have exceeded the age for conscription.Those who studied here are exempted from NS. many FT remain as PR rather than taking up citizenship.Are PR exempted from NS.?
    Those immigrants on SP pass are also exempted from NS.
    Apart from overpopulation with FT,it seems to appear that FT don’t serve NS is another very sore point among young Singaporeans.
    I wonder if the government is aware that some Singaporeans when serving in the army have visited prostitutes exp when they are posted abroad.Do the MOD have compulsory testing for HIV before and after NS?

  245. I believe ns men should be rewarded more, ie like a completion bonus etc.

    Perhaps the govt can throw in additional housing loan as well. Makes sense that ns men are rewarded with a bit of the land they are protecting. This can be financed by taxing foreigners

    Ns may be necessary but i do not believe the BS about not monetising Ns. We are already monetising public service, ie ministers, hence why should we not monetise ns?

    After all, we should pay the people who protect us well right?

  246. I love it when people who has not serve a single day of NS are often always the most vocal when it comes to defending NS.

  247. Why do all of you talk as if NS is only for SAF, War and stuff, What about SCDF ? SPF ? we need men to patrol the streets and fight fire too, to keep our nation SAFE! Unless all of you want to skip 2 yrs NS and join the regular.

  248. NS is horseshit…plain and simple…

    Sg guys cannot take the heat,cannot take that life is unfair,tough talks about country this country that but everyone missed the BIG point..

    50 freaking years of nation building and do i see here???

    proponents of NS keep saying they will defend our country and die for our country…and u have no concept of what is nation.Alvin already wrote it clear and simple…NATION before SELF,not COUNTRY before SELF and yet we still have dumbasses going on about serving ns and dieing for the country when u know jack shit about what it means to be a nation.

    early days ns HAD meaning,serving NS was considered a citizen’s duty because defending one’s nation,one’s country WAS a privilege.you are RESPECTED because you did a man’s job of protecting one’s home,one’s loved ones,one’s NATION,one’s COUNTRY,putting NATION before SELF sacrificing FOR THE NATION ,for the greater good.

    come 50yrs later,we have ppl coming here and sprout their nonsense abt those who denounce ns are pussies who shld come smell the pansies,calling those who criticize how ns have DISADVANTAGED sg men as being wrong in the head or worst still proclaiming to be willing to die for a country that held no meaning whatsoever as a nation.

    pap for the past 50yrs managed to erode the concept of sgp as a nation through mass import of foreigners to prop up internal economics and consumerism,telling locals to compete “fairly” with the fts,telling us to integrate with the foreigners(locals must integrate with foreigners….try telling that to the ozzies or Americans…HA!),telling us the high cost of living is inevitable but min wages is a big no no.

    i say to this ppl who are still unable to link NS to all the injustice done to us by pap,WAKE UP UR IDEA!!!!

    if you think those who refuse to support ns are idiots…well news flash,they too think you are an idiot for supporting ns.

    to the women who thinks ns is a must….bitch pls,us guys can never fully understand how painful mensuration cramps are,how it felt carrying a baby for 9 mths and how painful child labor is…jus like u women will never understand the discrimination felt when we ord,the fustration felt when we are passed over for a ft and how painful it is when our nuts are being kicked…so women,we guys dun challenge you on child bearing issues,you dun come challenge us on our ns issues..stay out!

    for the ganho guys,u wanna die for a country and not a nation,pls..go right ahead and be cannon fodder….dun let us stop you…hell you can be in the front line if it makes you happy!

  249. Women should serve NS too. And those who don’t serve ought to be made to pay a high defense tax to ensure that those who do are properly compensated.

  250. Even for women who were in the military, they joined out of their own free will and were **properly paid** during their service term. And once their contract is over, and they do not wish to serve, they are NOT tied to decades of reservist BS. Male-mandatory National Slavery + re-service liabilities and “sign-on” regulars are 2 completely different things.

  251. life of a Sporean man…. imagine a man right after much struggle being disadvantaged by NS, competes with the FTs and women in the competitive corp rat race being discriminated against by employers and FT superiors who favours non-sporeans because they no need to serve reservice or RTs… after sometime, this man finally get to have a family; only to be discriminated under the Women’s Charter.. whereby when any unfortunate man divorces, his hard earned assets get halved, and he has to pay for the woman monthly maintenance even if the divorce is due to the woman’s change of heart or having uncaught affairs outside. if he can’t afford to pay, he can declare bankrupt. If nothing happens to marriage, he slogs through his prime with reservice hiccuping through his career and pissing his bosses off. by the time reservice’s over he’s almost 40… in the 40s, the words he fear most when calling for a job is, “huh u’re 40 already ah… thanks for ur application”.. soon he realise he needs to apply for taxi license despite all the yrs of work experience he accumulated… if he’s lucky, he works till 75 or 80 which probly will be the retirement age when he gets there, or maybe even no retirement age at all? a wise 90 yr old man in SG once said, “if want to die early, retire early”.
    That’s life, Sporean men.. face it. nothing is fair in this world.

  252. Foreigner. Lived in SG for over 10 years, now a PR. Here’s my two cents.

    NS is good in the long term. Look at the bigger picture. When you mix flour and water to form a dough, you need the right proportions of each ingredient and you also need to knead the dough. The flour is existing Singaporeans (3rd gen. assume great-grandparent is from China/India/SEA countries etc.) The water represents the new PR/Foreigners How do you help with the integration the son of a 1st generation PR and the son of a 3rd generation Singaporean into Singapore society? You need to knead the dough! And the best solution so far, or the govt.’s solution is National Service.

    This is but one piece of the “Great Singapore Formula” (GSF). By inviting foreign investment of different types eg. The average tourist, MNCs and potential new citizens to Singapore, the country has managed to create a vibrant economy and an efficent society. From 3rd to 1st world in less than 35 years.

    The biggest value-add (in the long term) are new citizens because it creates a better gene pool. Singapore is small, so it cannot contain too many people, it has to keep the best and renew the gene pool with each generation. There also needs to be absolute control over various aspects of society, to ensure that new generations of Singaporeans (comprised of existing and new citizens) can live in harmony and be have relatively comfortable lives. So the govt. owns everything; land, housing, cars, education system, renewable resources. This is the only way to ensure that the formula can be kept going. Some of the brightest minds in Singapore came up with this formula and have been tweaking with it for more than 40 years and Singapore will probably go down in history as the best planned and most successful social experiment man has ever known. As for NS? It will be around long after the founding families have entered into history books. If you look at it this way, the specifics of NS like reservist and duration does not really matter.

    For the leaders of Singapore, the survival of the country, the necessity of the Singapore formula with its deep-rooted pragmatism, and the living standards of future generations of Singaporeans far out-weighs the sufferings faced by the current generation of Singapore males.

  253. Singapore is not really a country.It is a city state.Melbourne or any state in Australia is so much bigger than this tiny red dot.A governor of any state in the US or Australia has a bigger job scope than the PM of this tiny red dot.To have a army made up of conscripts to defend this tiny red dot is absolutely laughable because no city state can be defended.So what if the SAF can give a boody nose to the enemy.Any country can easily take over this red dot if they want to.MOD budget is the highest budget exceeding that of MOae,MOH etc.
    Time for the gov to revue the SAF.Recommend aSwiss system of conscription.All the soldiers are permitted to carry their gun home with bullets.

  254. I agree with Alvin that it’s time for the govt to review the whole system. There are people who are paid to do but failed to do so because they do not want to put extra burden on their daily work scope, they are afraid to change the system. A 3G army still don’t do things or having the process in lined with technology is outdated. For instance, overseas notification – this can be overcome with a system in-place when the immigration checks/stamp your passport. Since the govt has your records of overseas and they can send you warnings letter, why not having an overseas notification application at the airport or checkpoints to activate this on the spot? They can built a website portal for that, why can’t they implement a system for auto-triggering? The second one which frustrated me is that sending over documents of evidence or medical documents have to personally go to camp or MO to endorse, why can’t this be done electronically? They should review the whole system to make much more efficient and not wasting our time because the process is not reviewed after so many years – keeping it intact because it is a legacy system. If the govt has no specialty in process management, they can always hire a management or process consultant to review this impartially.
    2nd matter regarding the time frame that one is bounded to (for instance 2yrs of National Service and Reservist till 40). On what ground do the govt justify that 2yrs is sufficient? BMT only 3 months for guys to acquire the basic training, what other type of training is required for the guys to take next 1yr 9mths to protect the country? It really depends on your vocation to determine the time length where you really to master your vocation. Do you need 2yrs to become a professional clerk or storeman? They need to review on the vocation value and training value of each of the vocation. With years of experience from the commanders, don’t tell me army can’t derive these vocation insights? If the necessary and required time for guys to learn basic solder fundamentals + their vocation training requirement is only 6months, let this be the minimum requirement and any extra time commitment will be an option for the individual (with an incentive for those who wants to carry on). Most of the times in the unit after BMT, basically is wasting time – this applies the same for reservist. You can’t treat every vocation to be the same. This applies to reservist as well. On what grounds and data has shown that 40yrs is the max age for the reservist to end? They can use data from the health department to track on which age are the fitness and health level start failing. Why do insurance premiums priced differently for different age group? The logic applies the same if there’s the same basis of insurance underwriting applies to the reservist tenure. One can model the tenure of reservist.
    Lastly, regarding the IPPT, not everyone has the same fitness level, weight and height. How can they tie the passing benchmark with age only? Is age the only factor that will determine your passing grade? Every year, they do collect the data from the IPPT tests from each individuals, they should use the actual data and put into practicality. Often is the process which rots the whole organization. With careful scrutiny, gathering feedbacks from the public and constant review, one can make the whole system works better. Everyone has the rights to complain, sometimes the intention of complain is to make things much more better. Try to understand from the angle and perspective of the person. Not everything is perfect but one grows from mistakes and flaws.

  255. I think the truth is:

    1) Those who never served, are not eligible to serve, are protected from serving, rain insults, sarcasm or flattery upon NSFs and reservists, because they are terrified that they might have to account for their own safety. They have every interest to ensure someone else continues to do the dirty work.

    2) A small number of those who did serve, cannot come to terms that they truly aren’t as great, or as appreciated as they would prefer to imagine. They cannot accept the possible reality that most of what they did, quite differ from their fantasies. So they scorn those who seek to revamp the system they are entrapped in.

    3) An even smaller number, thankfully, are actually the most resentful of the NS system. And so their only outtake is to say, everyone is doing it, why you make so much noise? Which in truth actually means, I have to do it, why shouldn’t you suffer the same way as me.

    4) And those, PRs, who stayed here for years but refuse citizenship, do they even deserve a right to speak on this topic.

  256. @janicejanice husband – I hate to break it to you but watching ah boys to men doesn’t count as your wife going thru army ya…..

  257. To all the pro-NS types, get a life please. I totally agree with Alvin on every point! And two years NS to me is really absurd, its not like our lifespan is a thousand years, one year should be appropriate (3 months BMT 9 months VOCATION). And the salary during NS, only few hundred SGD? SAF/MINDEF, you and everyone up there knows very well its way too low but you don’t give a shit because you know we can’t do anything. Everything so damn bloody expensive now and you are giving only a few hundred every month for two years, oh come on man. And i don’t quite understand why singaporean men who are holding good posts with very high salaries are seldom called in for reservists. Hmmmm…….

  258. Im currently serving the army as a signaller rebro detachment. Im left with 11 months more. Its a pretty long time to me. I chiong all the way and by the way, i got outfield tmr. Got a gold ippt and marksman and got money for it. Army is just a waste of my 2 years! I havent learn anything from here. But one thing for sure is i treasure my friends here alot! I feel that we have to protect singapore!! But not those foreigners. And many of the trainings could have cut short and we should serve lesser. I think in 1 year we can achieve everything that a normal nsmen now did in his 2 years. If you are in the army, you will understand this.
    All this while in camp, we have to just listen to our commanders or else they threathen to charge us. We do alot of saikang work for those higher ups. Theres alot of wayang you have to do for example when the CO is around. Is that the point of ns? As a man, the only thing we look foward to is our book out day after spending monday – friday in camp and only to book in on sunday. i want to spent more time with my family!!! Whats worse is when my CSM plays with our book out timing every friday and we book out very late on a friday. Its a whole different story if you are in my place. I just keep quiet and do as told but deep down, i feel like a dog to my higher ups. Things like area cleaning over and over again? Wtf? Im sure if we check our commanders bunk, it will be worse than ours. How are we going to have pride to protect singapore when we are being treated like this? I have been a good soldier all this while and have never taken any status and this is my point of view.

    What i want from the govt is to:
    Make ns 1 year
    Make realistic training unlike weird trainings that we have. And the equipments i used is so old! Its like not even up to date. You should see our army signals sets! The Antenna is like filmsy and it broke during outfield and my fren got charged and sent to db. Its not fair! What to do? Haha.
    Be more flexible and allow the man to book out every day.
    Increase our pay. I have to pay for transport,bills, food and many other things. We are going to protect singapore and this is the pay you are giving us? Fuck you!
    Treat us better and respect us! Atleast we feel appreciated. Thats all guys! I have to go to outfield tmr! Camo on and stay happy! 🙂

  259. First world complaints. Life isn’t perfect. Suck it up.

    Just by having a roof over your head, food on the table and a little money left over, you are in the top 3% of the world. Every Singaporean is more fortunate than he/she realises.

    If you think your life isn’t perfect, you’re right. If you expect life to be perfect, you’re naive.

    In an ideal world, we wouldn’t even need an army, cause there wouldn’t be wars. But the world doesn’t work that way, does it?

    Suck it up. People who are bothered over issues like these are going to be very disappointed in life.

  260. Why not significantly reduce employer’s contribution to CPF for those who have served NS and have to do reservice, and have the government pay for the difference instead? This can be funded by increasing tax for foreign workers and women who do not have to waste their youth, education and career away doing NS and reservice (and only know how to talk big and tell others to suck it up).

  261. Even for women who were in the military, they joined out of their own free will and were **properly paid** during their service term. And once their contract is over, and they do not wish to serve, they are NOT tied to decades of reservist BS.

    Male-mandatory National Slavery (re-service liabilities) and voluntary “signed-on” career regulars are 2 completely different things.

    Women should serve NS too. And those who don’t serve ought to be made to pay a high defense tax to ensure that those who do are properly compensated.

  262. I was lazy ,quiet and shy during my youth and i know my flaws.when i was called up for N.S.i was confused and frightened.N.S. had given me the opportunity to transform to a man.I been thro’hell too.^6 miles ran with full battle order with extra water bottle as i was a combat medic.I ORD with the rank of sgt.1 did my 13 in camp..now i am a successful bussinessman.Thk You NS for transformation..

  263. When you have an increasingly well educated populace, a dwindling workforce made of citizens, and on top of that a rapidly aging tier of society, what is the logic of subjecting able bodied men on the cusp of the brightest years of their lives, to protracted conscription? 2 years to beat a soldier out of a boy, when the heart to carry a gun is not there in the first place? Can patriotism even be taught?

  264. @Grace Lee
    Well said Grace my dear, SUCK IT UP! 🙂
    Its such a shame you are not born in places such as India, you would have made such an inspirational figure. Since things like getting raped is part and parcel of everyday life, why even bother going on protests? Why bother pushing for stricter legislation for deterrence?
    Come to think of it, at least they are not being chained up in some underground basement and treated like an animal right? Their situations are already SO MUCH BETTER than what some other women are going though. So going by your logic, they should suck it up too eh?

  265. Frankly I am quite taken a back by so many negative comments. I think most of those who commented are younger than I. I am now nearing 55yrs. Perhaps personal values and the sense of responsibility have changed since the time I had served.

    I do not mean to offend, so please accept my apologies for those who maybe hurt when I say that it seems to me that there is a increase of self-centeredness amongst Singaporeans. Maybe there something wrong with our education system. Could it be that the over focus on relentless economic and material success may have not only condition us to want to out run our neighbours, but also our very own women folk and new citizens? My gosh! Have our hearts and minds grown smaller? Aung San Suu Kyi saw something which made her say that she will not copy our policies completely. She is wise. Something is seriously wrong.

    Anyway, coming back to my point about serving NS. We as humans have duties and responsibilities to our family, community and country. It is part of being social animals. We live in societies and there surely will be duties and responsibilities. I had served my 2.1/2 years and it was tough. We had to run up Peng Kang Hill with our rifles over our heads. I know they do not do it nowadays. It was torture and some would say it was stupid, but I can tell you that by the time we finished OCS we were shit tough as nails. I thought I could do anything. Climb any mountain or take on any mission. We were super fit, we were damn confident and I really felt we were damn good. I can’t speak for all of you, but I have the right to speak for those in my platoon in OCS and later in my Tank company. The bottom line was that I saw the positive benefit and had learned much from the NS experience. The 2.1/2 years were surely NOT wasted years. I served and am proud that both my sons served too. We DID our part and it was good enough. We do not need anything else.

    I remember once I physically removed a 75mm tank round which broke off from its casing and was lodged inside the tank gun barrel when it misfired. I was of course scared. I was 18 years old and it was my first encounter with such a situation. All I knew was that the damn 75mm round was faulty and someone had to remove it. I had to do my duty. That gave me courage. I climbed into the tank and removed that round very carefully like I would a new born baby and scooped up the spilled highly combustible propellant which were in the tank gun firing chamber and all over the tank floor with my bare hands. This type of things one don’t forget. Someone had to do it and it had to be my men or it had to be me. There were other episodes in my 2.1/2 years service and so you can understand why I still wear the watch the army issued me after finishing my reservist training with alot of sentiments. It is just priceless. It has my sweat, blood and tears on it. I had given my all during my NS. The watch is worth more to me than any Rolex I can buy. I did MY National Service and am damn proud of it! It was surely NOT wasted time for me. It was part of my growing up. I benefited. It was indeed my rite of passage.

    Brothers and Sisters, from what I can see now I doubt there will ever be the need in my lifetime, but who knows.. for if ever there is a war, I am ready to serve again in the AMX-13 if they allow me or they can just issue me a rifle. I understand my duty and responsibility to my family, friends and to all of you. It is unconditional. I don’t care if you are a man, woman, immigrant or homosexual. You can stand with me or you can leave. I will not have malice for you. However, I will not leave your family, friends or you and I tell you that I do not need anything back.

    Yes, we may be a tiny red dot, but I know my duty and I take responsibility. Come what may!

  266. Hi,

    I am a 2nd gen PR, born in m’sia, served my full time NS and Reservist cycle, and obtained my citizenship after serving full time NS. I empathize with many of the points raised here, and basically the underlying issue is one of “FAIRNESS”. Judging from the comments here, the govt can make an immediate improvement to the system by simply paying NSmen more, say with a starting NS pay of $1.5k per month. This will make NS a more palatable to those who are serving, and at the same time make MINDEF think twice about using NSmen as cheap labour or “slaves”. Shorten full time NS by one year, and the reservist cycle by half. Instead of “waiting to rush, and rushing to wait”, conduct NS and reservist training with greater effectiveness to save everyone’s time. Already some friends I know were never even called up for 1 day of reservist. PR’s who do not take up Singaporean citizenship after 3 years should have their PR status revoked permanently. A radical shift in mindset is required by the government to win hearts and minds in convincing the current and next generation of Singaporean males to serve NS. Giving us $100 vouchers is too little, and hopefully not too late.

    As to whether we are capable of defending our country, my gut feeling is “YES”. We may hate the system and grumble about it, but when the going gets tough, I will stand up to be counted to defend my country, even when I am an old man.

    Cheers.

  267. I think NS is important. Yes is sucks away 2 years of your civilian life but I think I gained alot from my NS experience. The tougher the better! Suffer and die that’s what I’ll say! because you won’t die and will definitely become stronger; mentality and physically. It’s just how you see it i suppose… but i guess I can understand if you’re stuck with clerical work all day everyday because I have friends who did it for most of their 2 years and yeah I agree that is indeed a waste of time. But my point I suppose is how you want to look at it. The only thing which I thought impacted me the most in a negative way so far is my ability to get back into study mode for Uni. While the girls and the foreign students cruised on to Uni without much seeming difficulty i was still struggling with basic Maths and the like which made my first year or so a living hell. But then I always look back at the shitty times in army and say,”It could be worse.” So yeah it’s an uphill climb but the foreign students aren’t difficult to beat really.

    As for employment, I think, from my perspective, as fresh meat out from the grinders, it isn’t that bad too. For me, I see programming jobs everywhere, just don’t ask for too high a paycheck and be willing to work longer hours than usual ( Work-Life balance is/has always been a myth ).

    Is NS really needed?
    It is probably not in my purview to talk about classified information so all i can say is that we are not as safe as we think as are. Period.

    Should girls do NS?
    This i am totally 100% for this idea. We as Singaporeans, should all serve NS. Please do not site making babies as a national duty because it’s not.

    On the same note
    In my view, the state is absolute. The government is not. The state lives on day after day but the government can change anytime. The government =/= the state. I suppose my point is that you don’t need to love your government, to love your country. I love my country but I don’t love my government.

    On a different note
    I suppose my take away from my NS stint is that life won’t always go down the way you want to. Life isn’t perfect. It never is and never will be. We have to take it in our stride and move on I suppose.

  268. Janice’s comment made me laugh. Look, as a few others have mentioned, you haven’t served NS, and will never need to. Just this fact alone is enough to tell you to shut up and stop spewing drivel. Do you think it is that easy to invade a country these days? Especially one that’s under the UN sanctions? And if another country really did want to invade, do you honestly think our numbers could deter them?

  269. @Grace Lee

    Go by your own saying, all feminist groups should be disband, the women’s charter should also be destroyed. Women should just “suck it up” to whatever is coming their way.

    No puns intended.

  270. well said man, i cant say much and i am totally agree with you. u made a good choice, if i had the choice i would go too.

  271. The best part is,i was injured.. went to hospital… need to get some excuse to protect my own body from harm, the doctors all think that you are ‘chao geng’… still must serve reservist as normal PES B,take a 400kg weapon… and guess what,i’m same age as you!! Who will really listen? Are they making us more motivated by giving us monies,SAFRA membership or even discounted movie tickets? Do they really think we appreciate their efforts? Come to think,how about scrapping off the IPPT system, or even the stupid IPT/RT system that deprive of our precious time with family, and have MORE babies. All they think are just putting country first? Without listening to the people, who will want to fight for you?

  272. what is the point of serving NS when singaporeans are being discriminated against when going for job interviews as most of the interviewers are fts?

    The battles SG locals truly face are within their own society and within singapore; everyday is a struggle.

    all u need is a Regional manager or some management staff to be FT and they’ll bring in all the people from their country…

    @ girls who are passing snide comments just because you didn’t go through the same shit the guys went through during NS-> shut the f up.

    you wanna be useful to the government which you adore and worship on a pedestal-> u volunteer and go serve NS yourself.

    Many SG girls don’t even have the guts to work in hospitals as nurses, which is similar to army as it has hierarchical system, strict discipline .

    Not to mention working in a place where 80-90% are Filipinos who will discriminate against you by making sure that you(an SG local) work on national day while they’re all off on that day.

    In fact, I’m going to suggest that all girls should serve NS after reading all the snide and nasty comments directed at SG guys.

  273. @ Grace Lee

    So your reasoning is that because other people, in other countries, are suffering so we cannot strive for a better life for ourselves?

    Firstly, Singapore is a First World Economy with Third World Rights.

    Secondly, National Service is not some small issue that you can just sweep under the rug,

    Thirdly, we have sucked it up merely by turning up on enlistment day. I hated every moment of my army term, but I still put in all I had and got an Outstanding for my performance and my conduct. Believe me, I have sucked it up.

    It seems that you are the ungrateful one. It’s pretty easy sitting behind your keyboard and telling people to suck it up, but you fail to realize that you owe these people for their contribution in establishing a “First World Country”. I have done my service, but I still appreciate those who have sacrificed a significant portion of their time in the nation’s defense (both man and woman), especially those who have fallen in their service.

    Your kind of thinking is the reason why we are so far away from achieving utopia. In order to reach utopia, or get as close to it as possible, we have to raise such issues and enforce changes and updates in the system (the NS system is outdated to say the least). Sucking it up only serves to keep you in your rut. If you think sucking it up is a healthy approach to life, then by all means, carry on, but I want something better not only for myself, but for future generations.

    I live in Australia now, and let me share with you, something I have learnt from Aussies. The moment they are wronged or have their rights as human beings infringed, they tell you off to your face. No mincing of words, no care if you get your feelings hurt, just straight up calling you out. There is no ‘sucking it up’ here and let me tell you, it is liberating. Go take a look at this: http://www.workplaceinfo.com.au/payroll/hours-of-work/. By 1700 hrs they are out the door, on their merry way. Now tell me, what’s working life like in Singapore?

    The situation I am in has not changed one bit, but I am light years ahead in happiness than I have ever been In Singapore. I used to just suck things up, especially to avoid conflict, but it made me utterly miserable. Guess what, my being happy and having a route to it liberates those around me. Being contented, I free up energy to help those around me make their lives better. It is a positive multiplier that keeps giving. So take you ass-backward thinking and go crawl under a rock.

    P.S. I agree with Jacob up there. And you wonder why women are not more respected.

  274. I much concur that NS is a modern day slavery. No long hair cuts, serve for another 10 cycles and if you dont clock in your ‘high keys’ you serve more cycles. Its time they review the whole NS thing. I mean with that much money, why don;t they have full time servicemen instead? 2 years is more than enough.

  275. Jack comments that NS can help in the integration of old and new Singaporeans i s a myth.How many NS men in the same platoon continue their friendship and become buddies after their NS?My guess is very few because with hectic life there is no time to socialize.
    Furthermore there is the rich and poor divide.Do you think that the rich NS men will continue their friendship with the NS men from the lower income?
    It would be worse when the NS men come from different countries.Can they gel together ?
    Jack is right that the government owns everything.So he postulates that there should be absolute control of the people new and old by big brother.His idea is very similar to Hitler,Stalin,Sadham Hussien and all the dictators in the past.What happen to their countries ?
    In Australia and US,with their multiracial population,there is no integration between immigrants and the local citizens.There are enclaves in these countries.Each race will live together in certain districts.
    Hence we have in LA little Tokyo,Chinatown ,little Mexico,and Latinos all living separately in different districts.The Muslims in the West also have their own enclaves.
    How many Singaporeans socialize with Malays,Indians and others after work?
    It has been projected that in 40-50 yrs time Muslims in Europe and America as well as Asia will be the dominant race and Islam will become the world religion.
    Jack can be excused as he is a foreigner and has only lived here for 10 yrs.I suggest that he read the history of Singapore.
    I have lived as a immigrant in Australia and the white Australians don’t socialize with the other races and vice versa.Even among Asians the Vietnames,Indians,Europeans all keep to themselves.
    So to think that our society can be like Rojak is simply a pipe dream.
    Let history be the judge about Singapore.
    Singapore is the most vulnerable country in Asia in the event of a Korean war between the north and south,and the potential invasion of China on Taiwan.The global economy also has an adverse effect on our economy should there be a global recession.
    We are so dependent on everything from food to the economy that there is no guarantee that Spore can continue to have a vibrant economy.We are already facing a double whammy in having
    Inflation and stagnation in our salary ie stagflation.This has cause a increase in the cost of living.
    Are Singaporeans happier now then 30 yrs ago?
    We can have marvelous plans as laid out by the PM national day speech but where is the money coming from?It is quiet obvious that all forms of indirect taxation on the population as well as increase costs in health care,education transport etc will have to be implemented.
    As a dying man I wish Jack is right in his optimism about this little red dot.I will not be able to see what this place will be like in 10 yrs time.

  276. I support the National Service Program. However, I think all new citizens must also go through compulsory national service. That way it is fair. Foreign Talent must attract Higher Levy even for EPs. There is no such thing as Foreign Talent. It is just a creative term coined to make them look glamorous. Why do we spend so much money sending scholars to UK and US when bulk of the FTs are coming from China, India, etc ? Then they should send the scholars there right ? That way, we don’t waste money and retain local talent in the form of our locals. We should learn to be self reliant not be a parasite. Parasites always get killed.

  277. Grace,nobody ever say the world is perfect.You have not been following the discussion here.The main subject of the discussion is that NS is outdated and need to be reviewed.I have looked at the Swiss system of conscription.It is very pragmatic and don’t waste the guys time by undergoing the present system of NS.Grace it is easy to say suck it up.Why don’t you do NS by producing more babies so that Sporeans are not cheesed off by FT?
    Janice says she loves sucking cocks.Do you as well?

  278. the RECRUIT is back, just managed to read finished most of the comments made after my first post…guys out there i feel you, sorry if u SPF/CDF guys feel left out by my comment. typing this having not slept for 11 hours. try to relate.

    challenges we SGP males/2nd G PRs faced:
    serving in a military[ in general..] that we’re not proud of, that the people we’re serving for, protecting are not in general proud of, us.

    we find the nearest mall toilets to change into civilian clothings after u book out, cos we are scared to go famous on STOMP for grabbing a quick bite, for sitting down on a possibly long journey on the public transport.etc in our uniforms.

    these usually were cause by people we were serving to protect.

    u serve NS, ur GF ditch you, cos she probably thinks her youth is more important than you, thats why if u havent realized ur ex-GFs are now with those guys that ORD alr, and the guy thats with ur EX, have probably been thru ur situation.when they were in BMT. its a vicious cycle. [” a woman worries abt her future till she finds a man, a man nvr rlly worry abt his future until he found a woman”]

    she probably ditch us, cos we’ve now lost our nice looking hair, we’re suddenly very poor for 2 years, we do not have the time for them, they hate the NS stories we shared with them.
    some of your commented that its the 21st century, and how thgs have change, that women no longer have to be just house-wives. with many now holding high positions. but our society is pretty constant in one thing, no money, no honey, FTs surely look more attractive to our local women as we are behind the FTs/ women by 2 yrs. god knows if we face mid-life crisis at our alr
    not paid-so-well job. just because our bosses feels that our ICT is annoying, and FTs /females will once again look like a more feasible replacement to ur sorry ass. cheaper labour, willing to work hard, no ICT/RT..etc…

    we served NS, knowing that the FTs are snatching everythg from our jobs, housing, opportunities, local women, and even our sense of identity as sgporeans, our sense of pride for this nation,

    i wont need to elebourate more on how NS,/ICT set us back by leaps and bounds in this nation with high-cost of living, so many people here, COE rises, with higher demand the price tags sky-rockets..
    government wants us to have more babies, but even though we could possibly scrap the barrel this time just to barely meet ends living in singapore, we have to think about our next generation. we dont simply have childrens only for them to struggle even harder than we did to survive in sgp. and u wonder why parents struggles to give a head-start for their children.

    while im going on about some of the challenges we faced as sgp males,
    i would like to take this opportunity to compliment many of the ideas given by fellow readers about how to improve NS, and also have to acknowledge the challenges that u guys faced.

    NS should not be removed but it can surely use alot of improvements..

    and last but not least, i found it to be extremely astonishing that JANICE commented that she would not be posting anymore and yet we can see her barge her way in to this male-related topic. once again, [ one bitten, not shy ahh]

    and @grace_lee.. saying we should suck it up, i thought that if the human race were to have suck it up mindset, we’ll not have progress, cos we’re easily contented/satisfied with lousy standards.
    kinda feel that she doesnt belong in this whole discussion and will readily throw that “suck it up” ideology out the window when she chances upon some rich-ass, good looking FT and then filled herself with that ” i definitely deserved a better lifestyle”. and hurry her ass to cling on to him like a freaking life-buoy….and we’ll just be in living in the shadows, talk about about the respect they give to people like us that serves/served.. idk if we’re alr second class citizen in our own country.

    btw korea has no ICTs… [not tat i knew off.] take care, my fellow comrades..countrymen.

  279. at my last job in SG before i emigrate for Australia, i was working in a software company. Out of 150 employees in the company, less than 6 are singaporeans. My PRC colleagues had the audacity to say that the SG passport that he possessed is for his convenience and he hold strong patriotic feeling for China. So what does that tell you?
    It is every man and woman for himself/herself. You want to stay back in SG? Then be a blind advocate for NS and PAP? Only people like us who had ventured overseas and broadened our mindset can see thru’ the lies and blind faith that these naive singaporeans put in the social construct of SG political system. Even Yacoob’s family are NOT in SG. so are GCT’s daughter and other minister’s children. Go figure, stupid singaporeans!
    Sinkies had been brainwashed, and suffered from Stockholm syndrome. How can they see beyond the horizon when their head is deeply buried in the sand and refuse to confront the reality>?

  280. with modern warfare technology, do you all think even need to mobilise army? just drop an atomic bomb on sg n we all can kiss gd bye forever. YONG BU CHAO SENG

  281. Alvin, I went through NS as did you. I was neither an officer, or a clerk (it matters because I’m not a plaintclothes commando).

    I will firstly agree that all we’ve gone through is a pain and sacrifice. From reservist, to IPPT to the time we’ve spent. But like you said; it all stems from choice.

    This is where my neither lofty or “lowbo” vocation is relevant. My life was tough; 10-day outfield exercises, climbing Mount Biang, and despite being in the mud with my comrades -I still had to be on my toes to save lives. The latter I did more than a few times. And despite that, I get no recognition. I get yelled at by officers, once kicked by my CSM. But in army, we mostly carry stories like these don’t we?

    Yes, I find it stupid that my hair is checked and I have to waste time in IPPT too. And that time served had little or no honour or glory. But it all speaks for the kind of person and choices we are. Our sacrifice.

    You admitted you love Singapore. Have a son, and hence you have a family, loved ones and a life here in Singapore. Realistically, without the army – without you – where would we all be? Yes again, the government and society can do better.

    It’s too bad Singapore is small isn’t it? We want prosperity and peace for our nation. But without an army how do we have peace? As for prosperity, without an army – how do you protect and enforce it?

    “Who will want to invade us lah?” A few years ago, Brunei and Malaysia had a disputed oil field in an ocean somewhere. Malaysia sent their navy ship and that was the end of it. Kuwait had prosperity, and Saddam Hussein (Iraq) invaded it.

    “If got war we can win meh?” Could you and your loved ones get out in time? Think of true crisis management. You won’t be able to. And what will happen? Oh you’ll just let a foreign steal. kill destroy and rape all that you love? You’re very generous.

    @Call of Duty: Only few countries have atomic bombs that work. Fewer still with capabilities to reach Singapore. Yes, kaboom our tiny island gets wiped out. But, Nuclear fallout also affects those near us. If our neighbours try to use it; it’s called shitting on their own bed and sleeping on it.

    I find it very “bitch please” when ignorant ah lians like taking pictures of army boys and smearing the name of our sacrifice. But you should know better. You served, and continue to serve. Please don’t shit on the face of your sacrifice.

  282. Our Govt is so filthy rich , get a full time army commandos , pay the Gurkhas , why subjects our sons to NS and reservists and whats not . Nowadays we dont even have to fight anymore hand to hand , just press few buttons and with all the $$$$ s we have who wants to attack us..

    Regular army for a small country like ours is enough just like Brunei , I am also a NS man doing 2.5 years as a Platoon Sgt scout Recce. I have given half my life to the army , what have they done for me ?? I also do not want my 2 teenage sons to waste half their lifes to this NS nonsensical stuff and reservists till 40 .

    Life is too short !!!

  283. @Ethan
    “Who will want to invade us lah?”
    Only the extremist and the anarchist will invade us. Singapore is too crucial as an economic hub with so much foreign investment coming into the country (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.CD.WD?order=wbapi_data_value_2012+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=desc) such that invading us would only cause economic trouble to those who had invested into Singapore. Not to mention, as you can seen in various media, there are many foreigners ranging from just a random millionaire to famous celebrities having their properties, money and investments parked in Singapore. There are too many other economic factors to take note of but one thing for sure, if Singapore is invaded, an economic collapse would happen in South-east Asia.

    “If got war we can win meh?”
    We maybe able to win in a conventional warfare with our neighbouring countries but with how the recent wars goes on at other parts of the world (Syria civil war), asymmetric warfare and unconventional warfare such as terrorism are the norm of modern warfare. In fact, if one were to invade Singapore, unconventional warfare would be very effective such as suicide bombing and assassinations. Without me explaining, you can already imagine how devastating it will be if our leaders are done in by a car bomb.

    Our NS system need to be looked into and changed in response to the current and future warfare trends. As globalization accelerates, we have to keep up or even be ahead of changes. The problem coming along with globalization we will face is possibly one of a cultural war with “civilizations” instead of individual countries or sovereign states. Each person would identify themselves belonging to ethnic groups such as Chinese or Kurds, or to religions such as Islamic or Christianity, or to geographical location such as Western or Middle East. Can we defend ourselves against a cultural/civilizational war?

    Instead of focusing too much resources on our defense, we should instead keep up our best deterrence which is our economic power.

  284. How does NS get recognition, when those that have gone through it goes around teling people NS is bullshit? I agree with @Ethan. A very well written comment btw.

    I served 4 years by choice. So, let’s put it this way, comments here that makes me DULAN are those that served and is here making a negative impact. I mean please, I understand the frustrations, the ICTs, the birthday wishes from Mindef. But, if you really want to make a difference, do it the proper channel. PAP already “brainwashing” us in the proper channel, here you guys are “brainwashing” everyone else about how “shitty, unglorious and unappreciated” we are.

    My 4 years inside, I was thinking, why girls do not think guys like us are cool, why people outside do not see uniform authority and respect them? So what if you a soldier?

    My answer lies here, with all these people whining about NS, lack of recognition comes not only from our Government, it comes from the everyday Singaporean as well.

    Imagine a Singapore where Singaporeans all love NS, we all appreciate those serving inside, instead of using anger to “change” the system, we are now using the love of ourselves, and our Singaporeans who are serving, served and going to serve, to “force” the government to change the systems, but i doubt this will ever truly happen. hahaha, just thinking of it makes me laugh at my own naiveness.

    Honestly, having served that long, I also gained insights on how our country will be fighting that decisive war if it ever boils down to it. Understanding the tactics and strategies “bigger picture” I dare say, I would be at the front lines, but I wish the front lines would be filled with more people of similiar thinking, even Janice. ( Whom, BTW, if you guys have read properly, served and went through OCS) and not wussy. So please, if ever there was a war, stay out it pussy, we do not need your “cowardice” to put my life at more risk.

    You ask me serving this country worth it meh? protect all these pussy, wussy, FTs, and what nots.
    Dying for them worth it meh???

    My answer is simple. I am not fighting for PAP. I am not fighting for Lee Kuan Yew, I am not even fighting for Mindef. I am fighting for my own interest, myself, my mother, my father, my friends.

  285. Last 2 points, we do not need to be invaded, to be at war. If our Defence Force is not strong, every country in the world can just hold our Citizens there for ransom. And TADA, what can we SG do? Tell them return our people or else? We throw Chicken rice at them?

    If any country wants to takeover us, they will be taking over our people, infrastructure, HDBs, Orchard Road, our CASINOs. That is what is valuable. Means they won’t bomb us, they will control SG from “government” they will be our new “PAP”. So please, show some intelligence, and stop all these, “one bomb kill us liao” mentality.

  286. @V We feel and care about our fellow soldiers, especially those in the future. That’s why we seek to improve the NS system.

    But beyond that what can we do? First we get people like Janice and Grace (strange, female names) who oppose improvements. Then the others who just wanna people to shut up and get lost.

    And the hard facts. 45 years of it, and only last year was there a fund for servicemen injured in training. Ministers and leaders who state training deaths cannot be prevented for sake of realistic training. A reward system that screamed in the MSM that soldiers would get up to 10.5K, when the truth is only those in the future, not the forefathers, will get it. And a fitness scheme that continues to emphasize on punishment, instead of accepting that despite all the RTs and IPTs, there’s still so many failures.

    Hard facts too from the economy. A newly promoted minister, ex general, admitting on TV, no easy solution for NSmen discrimination at work. No formal channel, at all, despite the millions splurged on shows, for NSmen to seek help when their careers are compromised by NS training. Baby crawls, after 45 years, to rein in companies that wanna enjoy the defense, but not pay the cost for hiring Singaporean soldiers.

    The entire climate is geared towards wanting Singaporean males to give their all, for lofty, intangible reasons of love and glory and nation, for the country. But when NSmen requires help, the country, the economy, the army itself, recoils in disgust.

    How do you feel the love to sacrifice for the country, when the country views you as already negligible?

  287. I agree with Alvin, blaming the system not the people.
    Just like minority of singaporeans who had migrated to other country, they are also going
    to that particular country competing jobs with the local people there.
    Those people are also been treated like FT there, just like how we treat our FT here.
    They are just people trying to get a better living here, to support their family back home.
    It is the system to be blamed. All I can say is our government is not doing a good job making
    us local feel unfair and biased. If they want to live here, they need to oblige to our status quo.
    Not coming here, making our country like theirs! They should acknowledge and appreciated what Singapore males go through to protect this country to what it is today. And if they want to become a citizen, they too, have to contribute to our nation. It’s NOT the government that make Singapore, Singapore. It’s US, the true Singaporeans!

  288. Honestly, I feel that it’s more economical to just build a nuclear weapon to deter attacks. It’s only a one-time fee and we won’t have any more sad deaths due the NS. The international committee is going to put sanctions on us? Ironically, the countries who criticise other countries for building nuclear weapons have the largest nuclear stockpiles in the world..

  289. And when there is a nuclear plant disaster, fire, explosion, or even sgflood. Not just a few people get affected, the entire country will be affected by the nuclear radiation.

  290. Perhaps many are not aware that women “signed-on” as regulars and becoming NCO or officers have different training programs for them (Not very sure about combat vocation though). However majority women signed-on in the logistic/service vocation and these women are subjected to a much much shorter basic military training averaging from 3 weeks to 7 weeks duration. I mean this sounds more like a campfire or holiday camp training to me. How they pass their BMT, I really wonder?

    Most have perhaps forgotten a former notorious woman officer who made a big hoo-hah over her baby pram in a public bus, delaying many commuters time in their journey. The conduct shown by her is unbecoming as a former officer. Makes me wonder if women in the military are subjected to equal disiplinary training?

  291. @Janice, you sound like you didn’t even attend a single year of formal education.

    You seem to be labouring under the delusion that every nation surrounding us is itching to get their hands on whatever we have. So that begs the question, what do we have? Natural resources? Oops none of those. Land? Nope not much of that either. Ah of course, our almigthy invaluable port. Really? Our port? Are you so naive that you fail see that No country on earth (except maybe north korea ) would trade or as you say ‘boost their exports and imports ‘ with an aggressor that had just annexed a sovereign nation?

    Okay nevermind. Now to shoot down another of your ill conceived and unsubstantiated claims. ‘Besides without natural disasters this would be a safe haven for any country to build it’s city in’ Well in case you haven’t noticed, there already is a city here. But I take it that you inadvertently did not notice a city of 5 million people. It’s okay. So other countries would want to conquer us because we don’t often experience natural disasters? Ha I’ve heard a lot of reasons for going to war but this is a whole new level of stupid. So they take over us and then what? Build concentration camps to wipe out our population so that their population can move in? Get real.

    Okay and then you claim knowledge of the history of japan, Malaysia and the UK should help us decide what our priorities are. Well I happen to be a better than average student of history. The set of unfortunate circumstances that led to our downfall in ww2 are almost non existent today. In a globalised and inter-dependant world, going on an expansionist frenzy would be certain economic suicide. Anyway, Enmity existed between America and Britain for over a hundred years. And as you would know, or maybe not, they were allies in both world wars and best friends ever since. Relationships between countries change over time and only a fool would think that the state of affairs at one point in history would exist perpetually.

    Here’s some useful advice for you, go do your homework and think a bit before you humiliate yourself on the internet. You are quite obviously delusional, misinformed and you give human reasoning a bad name.

  292. Just stating what I’m thinking, no offense.
    I agreed with the part of FT being in Singapore etc etc. But what’s wrong with protecting your family and your country? If the Govt could made NS optional, they will. But because the Govt could foresee the future of making NS optional, they decided not to. Because not all people would sacrifice, humans are selfish so am I. Only a minority will stand up and defend Singapore, so it will be better for people to trained themselves and constantly be ‘up to standard’ so they could defend their families and their homes when the time comes. Other countries make army services easier because they are ten or even hundred times bigger than Singapore, there are plenty of people willing to volunteer. Just because Singapore is a safe and sound country doesn’t mean that people could take this peace as granted, we have to guard and earn this peace.

    I’m a female and I volunteered to join the army. Why? Because I love my home, because I care.

  293. True, women are subjected to a shorter basic military training and not that tough as compared to the males. Because we are females, I’m not gender biased or what but women are weaker, not in mentally but in physically. We are born this way, if we could be tougher than the males, we will. And one undisciplined military woman doesn’t mean that the whole military women act this way. It’s like you won’t call any guy with mustache your dad. Same logic.

  294. It has been seen in the history of wars and you will be surprise to see that people who speaks so call negatively here will fight bravely if there is a war. People with brains and care, always brings out things that others could not see. People who cannot see is always those in their comfort zones. Ironically it was seen in history that those who speaks so positively, just chicken out of it. And it is simple logic that people with no choice will fight. For those who are in comfort zone in peace time have higher capability, therefore higher chance to move out of danger during a war. I believe those who speaks negatively about National Service, just want a fair treatment and system. It is not right to let other suffer while you enjoy in the comfort zone. Whether we can win a war, well, it depends on who is the agressive party!

  295. Jane don’t step one female army. We don’t believe you. I WANT NS TO BE 1 year! HEARD IT GOVERNMENT?

  296. Seriously, women are not that physically weak. Most women are plain too lazy and hide behind their physique as an excuse. There are many women that proof they are physically and mentally stronger than men are. Some names that comes to mind are Jane Lee, Jojo Sinclair, Joan Liew and Melissa Sarah Wee, even Tao Li is also a tough too.

    The military women in other countries ars as tough as their counterparts.

    It’s all about the hard work and training and women as tough as men are, darn, they can even be more intimidating than men are. So stop hiding behind your physique as an excuse.

  297. And mind you, she is not just any ordinary military personnel, she is an officer, probably Captain/Major in ranking.

  298. The absurd thing is you females are having holiday camp training and hiding behind your physique as excuse, yet have the cheek to unshamely snide and scorn the men who have gone through the full real training.

    You think you are still an officer in here or trying to pull rank here? Shut the f up and move aside.

  299. I was reading this post and it makes a lot of sense to me, but then again, everyone has different opinions of NS. I believe we females should step out of this because we don’t know how the guys has suffered or enjoyed NS, instead of commenting like we know best, which in fact, most of the girls here probably have no idea what’s going on anyways. Including me.

    I have heard from my dad, my brother and friends that indeed NS is tiring and sometimes they “work like a dog”, but listening to their stories and looking at them now, they have grown up to be such mature people.

    Whether I am siding the females or not, it’s true that majority of us don’t want to join the NS. There are other jobs that are paying better than what NS is paying, and if we have a choice, why not?

    That aside, I don’t believe physique as an excuse for women. As a women myself, I have worse stamina than a lot of other females, but if we really put in the effort, we can do it as well. I was from a uniform group, and I learnt that everything is about the mind. Mind over body.

    Everyone is different. And all of us have the right to speak out what we think. But of course we have to bear the consequences ourselves.

  300. Jane, applaud you signing up but the key difference is – you had a choice. You exercise your free will to love your country by signing up. The men don’t have a choice. Like Alvin pointed out – It’s not the NS thing that we hate but the lack of choice to exercise our free will. We all have rights and responsibilities and hence we all pay taxes but only a small subset of the population (Spore men) are taxed additionally. Where is the equality and fairness? If I had a choice I might go to NS and love it – but I was given none and I hated it.

  301. Alvin, well said, u hit the nail right on… I recall all the reasons the SAF gave for serving to protect our homeland and all the songs we sing during road march about service to our nation, now this feels like one big LIE and a BIG JOKE…

  302. national service is a euphemism for national slavery. just lumps of physical body being deployed around, being programmed on what to think, on what to do, to the slightest of detail, everyday for 2 fking years, while foreigners progress on job opportunities, where nearly 50% of population ARE FOREIGNERS, what the fk i do ns, in the event of war it will be internal strife first, internal break! yea yea yea national service fk my A**

  303. heck i have the opportunity to go into OCS, but no matter officer or lowly clerk, it doesnt matter because the fact that both are coerced to ‘serve’. in the end all being brainwashed and support the you know who your singapore grandfather

  304. and those who have ‘served’ their due will understand how fked up are some of the regulars inside, just a shithole, all the glamorising of the SAF are just pure BS when the reality is that slaving for national slavery just isn’t worth it anymore, the crappy treatment i can actually endure, the subtle bullying of nsf i can endure, what i cannot endure is that ns has lost its purpose and is just a wayang show, mainstream media can glamorise ns for all it wants and people who have ‘served’ will know the truth

  305. yea, v, you can say whatever fkshit you want but i want to burst your bubble, that a group of imagined enemies are ingrained into your skull with a thousand repetitions so that you can self rationalise that ns is good, yea your bubble is now burst.

  306. agree with the many comments above, especially @JOB FOR FT NS FOR SG, on how women that did not served should STFU… no being a sexist here,
    and @national slave @jacob @mark lee, i gotta agree with what u guys commented. and not to leave out @ermm… ur comments are quite relevant but the sad truth is sg gals in genereal dont think like you, they dont care, cant be bothered by the sacrifices we[men] put to make singapore like it is today, they only want jump onboard with rich FTs and become rich TAI TAIs… how to make ppl feel like its worth serving….
    women in other countries ”worshipped” men in uniform,they know its not like any other job. people around you looks up to you, in a bar u may even find urself getting a free drink or two just becos u served,
    the very realistic society that we have in SG, certainly made us shift over focus from NS,[nation hood] to prioritizing money, as to survive in sg, already with its high-cost of living, let just leave condos and cars out of the picture, it is already damt well difficult, not to even having NS to put us behind and with ICT to make us lose our edge against the rising number of foreign competition.
    and then we have to give our off-springs a better head-start[ tuitions.etc] so as to prepare them for the stiff, competition and the odds ahead of them.

    there was tis comment made by [ forgot who] about how the government should even out the playing field, especially if its on our own home turf, and how improvements to the NS system like giving NSFs some priority in universities would somewhat help us.

    once again, have a nice day, and may god bless us singaporean males./2nd G PRs.

  307. What we say will not leave an impact and we all know that. It will be on our minds for a long time but only for a while in the news. And then the issue will pass.

  308. I guess there is no need for NS any more! Singapore has been invaded by foreigners already! Openly invited these foreigners to invade our one little dot on the map. We true blue Singaporeans are pathetic! What are our poor NS guys training to fight for? War? War is ambigious, not necessarily an exchange of ammunitions. Instead, we (Singaporeans) should be trained to fight for our rights, wages, space and most importantly, our RESPECT as a Singaporean at the time of birth.

  309. NS is good what. I’m over 40, I did my NS and reservist. Oh yah, I hated it every bit of it especially during BMT. But now that I’ve gone through the system, I actually appreciate all that it did in me. It did actually make me more disciplined and I made good friends in my platoon. It made me stronger in my character and I do wish for my son to go through the same thing I did. And I know that I’m not the only one that feels this way, many many of my working colleagues have also expressed the same sentiment. Yeah sure, we complained a lot back then but on hindsight we’re actually quite grateful for it. Least but not least, I am of the belief that citizens of a land should learn how to use a rifle to protect that land. And no, I don’t subscribe to the notion of girls being conscripted as soldiers if a country is not in a real threat of war, unlike Israel.

  310. @recruit: and other people. I like your comment on respect – which is why we are all having this discourse. I like and encourage discourse as that is what our country should do! It may not solve the problem but if we bring up the problem – it is a start.

    The issue here is that, like I mentioned in my post; most of us served and sacrificed without much appreciation. That is what we write and debate for isn’t it?

    Problem here, is like I mentioned, so many of you men who have served bitch and whine about NS. You shit on the face of your sacrifice. What respect are you trying to win by doing that? Life isn’t channel 8 where one acts out how pitiful they are and then receives a handout.

    You served, so you know what true sacrifices you and those around you put in. Just as it is a matter of choice how you chose to grow/implode when put through NS, it is also a choice how you react to NS.

    How do we win more respect, more recognition? It starts with you. Each and every single soldier pulling his/her own weight, and then others up.

    How do we balance the scales for fairness in the work/lies of our NSmen? It starts with our government too. And with the respect accorded, I think there will be a measure of success.

    @Concerned citizen and @ivanovich: No nation, even despite geo-pollitical situations these days are safe from invasion. Even the Swiss have an army. It contradicts your logic that just because a country is stocked and loaded with foreign reserves, investments, and even neutrality bother spending some money on an army. New Zealand has an army and a very tough SAS force.

    Billionaires and millionaires come to our country because peace and security is ENFORCED. because of you. Not just what you do at work, but also because you have and continue to serve. Think about that.

    Without peace, and enforced security we are small, have no resources and just an investment risk. Yes, Singapore may be important economically for the region. But not so much a collapse – but also elimination/annexation is a strong enough motivation for invasion.

    We need an army. For the reasons I stated in my prior post. Because we want to have a voice. Assertion, and a say in the geo-pollitics of this region. In simpler terms; think about the haze situation. If we pose no “loss” or subtle threat when we complain to a certain large neighbour – that said neighbour will just wave it off with a “little bitch, please.”

    “When in peace, prepare for war.” But people who wish to have NS abolished all whine the same tone – “do we have a fighting chance?” We always have as long as the men who defend us are willing.

    The army has changed since your time. In fact, that same unit I was part of, happens to be well trained in dealing with “changing modes” of warfare. Which was why we trained a lot.

    @V: thanks 🙂

  311. @janice Sandwich,now.

    Served my two years like anyone else,didn’t feel like i accomplished much.Sure,having ORD-ed,allows me to disturb my friends who are still in service by the usual “ord loh” remarks.Deep inside,i still want “NS” abolished despite being an ORD personal.Seeing my younger friends being enlisted,knowing that their next two years are going to amount to nothing,can be quite a saddening thing.Especially when i can do nothing about this.

    Singapore aims to be at peace through diplomacy and deterrence.With a population this size and combat technology short of advanced,any attempts of showing deterrence is just laughable.And the world knowing how unwilling our guys are being forced into this charade as a side joke.

    Now realising this,do we really still want to continue this mistake?Since Singapore intends to remain neutral,not like we can make much of a difference taking a side should a war occurs,why not redirect the funds spent on this futile defence to securing diplomatic ties and humanitarian missions?At least we’re making something happen this way.

    After all this talk,what i’m saying is that there should be no need for conscription.Please return my friends back to me and stop taking them away.
    Those who are planning to migrate,please do so while you can.After all,being in Singapore,we can only do what we’re told.It’s like having your own free will and wanting the freedom of speech is against the law or something.

  312. The PR team in the SAF should be sacked. It is a waste of money to use any of those big Ad firms. The whole PR and marketing concepts are all wrong.

  313. @Ethan
    You have misunderstood me that I am calling for abolishing of the army. I agree with you an army is still necessary. What I am calling for is a review of the NS system because compared to your example of Switzerland and New Zealand, their military differs greatly from ours.

    Using your example of Switzerland, their conscription service is much shorter compared to ours (around a year of active service and 7 recalls for reservist) and in addition, their military budget is only about US$4.8b (2011) which is 6% of their national budget and 0.7% of their GDP compared to ours which is S$12.3b (2012) which is almost 20% of our national budget and 3.5% of our GDP. For New Zealand, their conscription service ended in 1976 and their military budget is of US$1.3b which is 1.2% of their GDP.

    What I ask is do we need so much resources in our defense? Can we make do with lesser resources and manpower for our defense and still maintain a powerful military force?

    In case you’re worried about our neighbours, compared to Malaysia, they have an active force of 80k and a reserve of 50; Indonesia has an active force of 233k without reservice. Malaysia spends US$3.2b (2011) on Military and Indonesia spends US$6.8b (2011). Singapore currently has 72k active force including NS personnel and 500k in reserve. Based on such figures alone, you can already tell that we have reached the point whereby we have quite a strong military presence in SEA and in fact, we could probably maintain the status with lesser resources or manpower.

    Another thing to note, peace and enforced security is not the only factors why billionaires are coming to put their wealth in Singapore. Due to the recent bank secrecy act, Switzerland has been affected and many have instead place their wealth in Singapore. In fact, we will surpass Switzerland as the largest offshore wealth center by 2020 if our growth continues and we remain unaffected by the bank secrecy act. As you can see, if it is not for this recent bank secrecy act, we would never have more investments coming just because of peace and enforced security. In addition, our enemies would only seek to annex Singapore instead of elimination as decimating Singapore to a rubble would just destroy the economy along with SEA’s economy and affect the global economy. Not to mention, the political consequence that comes along with such an art. Even so, a simple car bomb against our leaders would do the job of annexing the government.

    This is why we need to look into our NS system and perhaps divert some resources into possibly social security or economic development which are also the gripes of many Singaporeans. In fact as you can see many comments above, our NS system is partly to blame for our social and economic problems of Singaporeans. It may not be the source of the problem, or in fact it may not even be the problem, but improvements will definitely help Singapore and its citizens.

    It is good to see that you’re passionate in defending Singapore and I respect people like you. Unfortunately, nowadays passion alone cannot feed oneself in our ruthless pursue of wealth and efficiency. I suggest that those who are very passionate in defending Singapore to think outside of the box as due to globalization, external threats coming from sovereign countries are diminishing and instead enemies come from within due to the cultural/civilizational war I described earlier.

  314. In regards to military strength of Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia, I found more different version of numbers which means the numbers I get are inaccurate. After all, which country would announce their military strength outright? Most of the numbers are probably result of disinformation deception as well.
    However, my stand regarding our military might within SEA is still valid and we could make do with lesser resources.

  315. You guys and that ALEX got no balls,escapist attitude, 一个人是考实力来证明自己的存在,不需要政府来为自己做什么. A person is suppose to prove his own worth and existence through his capabilities, no need to government to do anything. SG very pragmatic, if u got capabilities, u r provided with all the oppotunities, if u got none, suck it up and improve urself, dun blame foreigners. The SG government provided them with oppotunities because of their CAPABILITIES!

  316. To all those not involved in NS :
    You won’t understand unless you go through.
    Go back to online shopping, buy some clothes and live your life.
    You know shit about NS. Stop being the keyboard hero/heroine. *puke*

  317. Singapore will never abolish NS because of the voters profile. Most females will not oppose it because they will not be conscripted. Some will say they pity Singaporean males but most don’t care much about the issue. Most new Singaporeans will not oppose it because they will not be conscripted. These two demographics make up more than 50% of Singapore’s population through simple maths. Add on to that some siao-on “NS builds my character / I love NS /NS is nation building” type of men and you can be assured that no political party will have the will to propose anything to revamp the whole NS system.

    So I do not foresee NS being drastically revamped in the near future. However such disadvantaging of local Singaporean males are not without its disadvantages for Singapore. The whole nation-building stuff that the government keeps going on about will be moot if more and more foreigners enter the workforce with a clear advantage (No NS). This country is moving backwards in terms of nation building.

    Is the government listening. Maybe or maybe not. But I don’t think the incentives are there.

  318. i would like to add my thoughts to this matter. i am a 30yo sg male working in a bank with a significant number of FT in my immediate department. while there are some FT who appreciate the sacrifices that have to be made by sg males, there are many who think it’s all a big joke.

    by extension, they think that the concept of reservist is a big waste of time. some of these people who think this way are bosses, with singaporeans in their team. there is no way to bridge the gap in perception… bcos the 1g PR dont need to serve at all and yet they reap the benefits of prosperity and stability from NS. therefore from my limited observation sample, i would have to agree that something needs to be done before the growing chasm gets out of hand.

    i hope someone from the PAP is listening here, bcos i still think you guys have the critical mass of administrative talent but my patience is wearing thinner by the day.

    to people like janice, all i can tell you is this: no matter what you say, your views on NS don’t count for anything until you’ve actually served. sorry to bring up childbearing and pms as examples like others have – but its true right? guys know when to shut up on such issues – maybe you should too on NS.

  319. @Peter Ko Ko Crunch
    Then do you think our “strong armed forces” stand a chance against our larger and very unfriendly neighbours if we ever go to war? Read the whole comment, not just one sentence. Diplomacy wins because you can’t fight a professional army with 40-something beer bellied reservists blokes and scrawny 20-somethings, led by down PESed majors to boot. If we ever go to war, we’re fucked. Period.

    @NSCommander
    I see. That’s probably the case. But I’d imagine that if FTs were forced to serve NS for a foreign country (ours) just to work there, it’s very unlikely they’ll even want to work. And then the foreign companies that want to set up shop here are less likely to do so

    @CK
    “If they are born in Israel or in Palestine, they will realise the values of NS and the need to fight for your rights and your existence.”
    Israel is a nation constantly at war. There is a value to NS. Singapore is a nation at peace – there is NO value to NS – and besides, for reasons stated above, even if we go to war – there is still no value to NS. We will all die, or at least survive long enough to get out of the country

    @daniel
    As a Singaporean, the concept of reservist IS a waste of time. Foreigners and locals alike know this but us locals are all victims of PAP’s rigidity. PAP sure listened – they published that TNP article based on this blog post. And their stance is clear – “Silence the dissenters!!!”

  320. Sometimes when I read these comments, I cannot help but feel sad that these people don’t seem to understand the predicament we Singaporeans are in. The racial riots of 64 and 69, the major military exercise between Malaysia and Indonesia in 91 that occurred so close to Singapore and the persistent incursion into our waters by neighbouring military vessels.

    Don’t forget. When Singapore was first booted out of Malaysia in August 1965, they had even expected us to “crawl back”.

    Why is it no one seem to understand how delicate our political situation is? Why???

  321. If anyone of you is not happy with the system and want to migrate away from Singapore, please do. However, please don’t question the system. If you feel you cannot migrate to Australia or Canada, you can always go elsewhere. If you are a Chinese in race, you can always migrate to China and they will be happy to accept you. Likewise, if you are an Indian in race, you can always migrate to India and they will also accept you. There is no need to complain. If you live in Singapore, it is like that. There is no other way. Our country needs to be defended and we need to be on the alert constantly. It is a sad situation but it is like that. The good thing I can say about this is that as Singaporeans today, we are held in high regard by many in the world. If you managed to stay in another country, you can get your passport renewed with no problems. You can also walk pass their immigration without any fuss. This is the privilege of being a Singaporean.

  322. @Mark Yeo Mindef IB spotted, are you the BG who misguided us into thinking that ‘NS should be a privilege for Singaporeans.’ ? If you are, then let me tell you, “Take back your privilege’. The fact is that I am not part of the We that you are talking about. If you assume WE are together, then it is very sad. Because the fact is that WE will never meet and interest rarely conflate.

  323. And your content really lacks judgment and thinking, i can find the same quality of content in my old dusty social studies’ textbook; complete landslide biasness.

  324. I don’t get how some of you people can just nonchalantly label people who complain about the NS system as “gay”, “balless” and other crude terms. Let’s take a deeper insight on what NS really meant:
    1) Monthly allowance of SGD$480. What about transportation to and fro the campsites? What about purchase of food and necessities outside the training periods? Is $480 per month really enough? Not everyone comes from a rich family. What about those who still has to raise their family?
    2) Opportunity cost. 2 to 2 and-a-half years. What could most of us have achieved? 2 years of valuable work experience, progression of University education, and even a family.
    3) Reservist. Extends all the way till you’re in your forties. How much of our precious time is wasted away?

    In all, I would agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But at the very least, think before you speak. Look at how much we lose out in life. There are definitely many more stuffs I’ve missed out. And do we get rewarded accordingly? NO! We’re not asking for the NS system to be entirely scraped off, noting it’s importance to our nation. But at very least, take good care of those who have contributed and sacrifised for the nation, and not take them for granted.

  325. Hi, in my view, we should increase the military budget to develop military equipment and wages(too low) for NSF. For NS man, we should get more pay, other then our monthly salaries, we have got from our jobs because we sacrifies in many area. And no amount of money can cover that! if not we won’t be paying regular so much. We cannot rely on other countries for military equipment. Military equipment is also sold to other countries for profit. This can create more jobs in Singapore. But the problem is, currently ST is employing sub-contractor for jobs. And sub-contractor is employing PR! Everything about military is sensitive. How can we employ FT! Everyone should be local! Furthermore first and second generation citizen should not be in any countries defend force. Too dangerous! Second generation must automatically become citizen, complusary. No PR or student pass should be granted to 2nd generation.As for those new citizens, 2nd generation citizen, PR and FT that can’t be in our defend force, they should contribute 10%-15% of their monthly pay for their safety tax to our defend force budget. Because they ride on our economy and enjoy the regional safety from the protection of our defend force! And portion of the safety tax should be shoolarship(not tag to result) to everyone who finish NSF. Seats for education(university, poly, ite and etc) should be given priority to those who finished NSF. In this way, local gets more jobs in the military sector, ensure safety of the country, get compensation for the 2years lost. And for those who rides on our economy, they also contribute to our country. Nothing is for free in Singapore! They enjoy their time and make money here, definitely they must contribute to our society! Last but not the least, new law must be past down, if any non citizens mock at our uniform Personel, they should be fine at least $5k. SAF Personel protect their interest and they show no respect! Police protect their interest and Ang mo can make a fool out of them?(seen with my own eyes). This is not right! We Singaporean also cannot do this in their countries what?!

  326. I wonder how many countries have mark Yeo gone to… I have gone to quite a number of countries for the last 15years. Doesn’t seem to me that way leh…:-)

  327. Oic mr mark Yeo. Must be earning tons of money as a regular right? Ok now I understand your situation. Your position in other countries experience confirm sure good one, not your passport.

  328. @Concerned citizen I respect your statistical argument. They are valid points showing the numerical military strength of our country. Of this, I have been aware of, and agree we have the strength in numbers.

    Like our ministers who also like to lay claim with statistics – it doesn’t tell you the full story. That most of these soldiers are not career soldiers, some aren’t combat fit. Some are overseas or detainees.

    Note that this number will fall drastically in the coming years. Yes, you guessed why – our birth rate. Already we’ve seen a ‘manpower’ crunch in the army.

    So can we have a professional army in Singapore? Do the math – falling population, everyone wants freedom and to earn more (FT’s take up jobs, SG boys sign on). Not likely isn’t it?

    I still stand by my argument that an invasion could happen. Perhaps one of our larger neighbours will seize upon an opportunity, and declare Singapore a new province. At the rate the US is going – they can’t afford or handle another war. What’s tiny Singapore to us? Our investments? Well lets only use what influence we have to armtwist the aggresor to ensue it’s continuity. Thank you. But for citizens – unfair policies, taxes etc will be slapped on you. Now you think of fighting?

    Hence it is better to maintain a military strength such as this; rather than caught on the back foot and suddenly train to kan chiong kan chiong. It is also part of the art of war. No nation has ever rested on their laurels.

    You live in a peaceful neighbourhood – does it mean you don’t lock your door? We need a military for assertion as well. Imagine the haze situation again? More than economic threat, a subtle hint of our military is what asserts our say in the region. If not, 400 million over the inconvenience of 6?

    Yes it takes up the GDP; but when the shit hits the fan – you’ll be glad to have x number of F-15s ready to be deployed.

    I write to point out the flaws and pains I find in the system, not against the institution of NS. Never to abolish it. This is to effect a change in policy from the top brass.

    But respect has to be won by each and every individual soldier. You want to feel proud when you sacrifice? What you do, how you conduct yourself and what you say here in these forums. At the rate some of these people gripe, little wonder the ignorant ah lians are throwing themselves to ang mohs.

  329. @Ethan

    Thank you for your reply and your argument. I agree with you on the point that our military strength must maintain due to unforeseen or unpredictable circumstances and like what you say, its better to prepare for fire in advance rather than putting out the fire when it starts.

    However, I disagree on certain points regarding the threat of invasion which I think it is not as serious as it seems to be. Not to mention, the argument that numbers don’t show the full story also apply to the other countries’ military strength, especially Malaysia who now too have a conscription system. Indonesia may not have as much non-combat personnel as us due to them having a professional active force, but that doesn’t mean they too do not have non-combat personnel. Regarding this, it will be up to the military intelligence to know the exact numbers but since it is unknown to us, we can only assume and theorize.

    Also I have addressed quite a few points:
    http://alvinology.com/2013/10/07/on-national-service/#comment-19145
    http://alvinology.com/2013/10/07/on-national-service/#comment-19149
    http://alvinology.com/2013/10/07/on-national-service/#comment-19195

    I welcome further debates regarding the points I argued and highlighted over those comments.

  330. To : Grace Suck it Up Lee!

    I reckoned you are single, aging, unmarried and still a virgin, never been fucked by an actual warm penis till this point of your life. No, your toys don’t count no matter how deep they enter that shallow pussy of yours.

    Hypothetically speaking, some blind guy with no taste and a short dick might marry you at some point in life and you two fucked, and you have a boy … Here’s what your imperfect pathetic miserable life would be like, prepare to Suck it Up Bitch!

    Firstly, the 2 incher hubby will be attending RT on Sundays instead of ferrying his bitch around for shopping, eating and fucking. (His bitch refers to you Grace if you haven’t realised…) Suck it Up Bitch!

    He will meet his maker at the 2.4km finishing line when he’s 40 and still taking IPPT. I feel sad for him to have his life robbed for a lousy irrelevant IPPT test. But like you so callously said, “That’s life, it’s imperfect, Suck it Up Bitch!”

    Next, you’re lying on the hospital bed after your labiaplasty surgery for your protruding fanny lips from your years of toys ramming in and out… You can barely walk and you want your son to fetch you. But he’s stuck in camp for confinement, for reasons so unreasonable and trivial, heavens would cry.

    Guess what? He sucked it up like a bitch too, like what you taught him. Pray hard that he’s not sucking on anything else or anyone else in camp. As for you, pull up your little panties and crawl your way back! That’s life, Suck it Up Bitch!

    Some day in the future, Malaysia join hands with Indonesia to rob Singapore of all the cheap labours and superior foreign prostitutes, it’s war time! Singaporean men, including your son are activated to defend all these precious foreigners! You’re left alone, defenceless and vulnerable with only a cucumber as your weapon. What to do? That’s life, Suck it Up Bitch!

    The enemies found you…..
    Boo hoo hoo

    Don’t fret, it’s unlikely that they would be interested in that face or that fanny of yours. But one of them decides to mercy fuck you anyway with that cucumber weapon of yours looking at your horny face. Learn to suck it in besides sucking it up Bitch, he might change his mind, take it out and have it for dinner. You will think change his mind and have you, not a chance.

    The wild NSmen appears!

    That would be me, the underprivileged NSman prowling for bitches like yourself. I see you gasping for air, nearing an orgasm with half a cucumber sticking out of your shallow pussy. What should I do? Do I call 911? No, I will ram the whole cucumber in fully.

    Like you said, always SUCK IT UP BITCH!

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  333. Hey, let’s talk about the Swiss army since it’s come up a few times and Switzerland is a small country like ours. Let’s see… their conscription period is listed as 260 days, Singapore army NS period is almost 3 times theirs!! Their service period definitely sounds much more attractive. 260 days is less than a year. You mean, in less than a year, I can learn to shoot rifle, army flanking movements, learn urban warfare tactics, how to drive and fire a tank/APC, army tactics and strategy, participate in two major army exercises..blah blah. And not just learn all this by yourself but to coordinate with other soldiers so you don’t end up shooting one another. Dreaming lah.

    Switzerland is a bloody mountain fortress lah. Just blow their tunnels, enemy army cannot cross in already. So they just maintain big infantry divisions, is enough. Singapore, hahaha, is a walk on the beach!! Is almost indefensible terrain wise, so you better have a damn big and BLOODY EFFECTIVE deterring force. Else your neighbour in the south will still call you a “little red dot”, and your northern neighbour will just laugh at you if whenever you say to them “eh, your contract say this.. your contract say that..”.

    Military budget expensive? What are we buying that costs so much? Surely WW2 era gun also can what, also shoot bullets. Stuka also can dive bomb. Hello, think lah. One modern warplane is how many millions you know. What.. we just buy one, buy two… no, we buy entire squadrons worth. That’s just airforce, still got Navy ships and your Army MBTs, laser scoped rifles and what not. If want to say, just say “We are comfortable with a second rate army.” If not, yes, I’d like a MBT beside me should we ever go into a scrap.

  334. A lot of countries already develop unman vehicle and plane for war. We will be outdated in no time. Man should reduce. Military budget should go up for a real 3G army in terms of equipment. Minister should be taxed 50% of their monthly salaries on military tax because they get priority in getting protected during a war.

  335. @ Rafiq

    I suggest you do a bit of research first because you never consider the point of view from Switzerland. It shows lack of thought and makes for a very shallow comment.

    “260 days is less than a year. You mean, in less than a year, I can learn to shoot rifle, army flanking movements, learn urban warfare tactics, how to drive and fire a tank/APC, army tactics and strategy, participate in two major army exercises..blah blah. And not just learn all this by yourself but to coordinate with other soldiers so you don’t end up shooting one another. Dreaming lah.”

    From your description, it seems like you were a specialist or officer because learning both “how to drive and fire a tank” and “army tactics and strategy” seem to be exclusive to them. Unless you mean the basic army tactics because in order to truely understand army tactics and strategy in detail, you would need to be of certain rank. I also do not really consider exercise High Noon or Wallaby to be really major army exercise (Unless they are division-level exercise for that particular year).

    Also, 260 days may not include their training course. I have yet to verify this due to lack of time but you can do your own research at their website. In case you’re lazy, I even have it in google translate for you.

    http://translate.google.com.sg/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.vtg.admin.ch/internet/vtg/fr/home/militaerdienst/rekrut/rs/factsheet/carri.html&prev=/search?q%3Dhttp://www.vtg.admin.ch/internet/vtg/fr/home/militaerdienst/rekrut/rs/factsheet/carri.html%26biw%3D889%26bih%3D532

    Not to mention, are you saying that Switzerland’s soldier are not as proficient as you are? Until we can verify that we are indeed better than them, it is just naive to assume they’re not as proficient as we are. If you continue to have such a “superiority” attitude, then we can never improve.

    “Switzerland is a bloody mountain fortress lah. Just blow their tunnels, enemy army cannot cross in already. So they just maintain big infantry divisions, is enough. ”

    Very naive thinking. Mountain warfare is one of the most dangerous type of warfare and if an army is trained in such, you can be sure that the soldiers are very strong. Not to mention, the amount of training and cost for mountain warfare is lengthy and costly, which shows that if the Swiss army can achieve that much proficiency in a shorter time than us, surely we can do so.

    However, I do agree that Switzerland has the terrain advantage and with a trained army making use of this advantage, it is hard to successfully capture Switzerland. But, thats just assuming Switzerland is the only country that trains in mountain warfare. Switzerland is a landlocked nation with powerful countries that probably has equal or more proficiency as Switzerland.

    In case you do not know how the Afghanistan war goes, much of the country is mountain and US has trouble holding their grounds there; although it is successful in Iraq. This does not mean that Switzerland is an impregnable mountain fortress. You must also take note it is not by “blowing their tunnels” that they can stop enemy army from crossing. One of Swiss army’s grand strategy instead of static defense at the borders (like what you said, “blowing the tunnels”), it is a strategy of organized long-term attrition and withdrawal to strong, well-stockpiled positions high in the Alps known as the Réduit. It is also this strategy that is one of the deterrence to many potential invasion especially during WW2. In case you do not know, Hitler did devise an invasion plan for Switzerland known as Operation Tannenbaum, but due to many factors including unknown reasons, it never happen.

    Back in our soil, I have addressed some points regarding why the threat of invasion on Singapore is less serious than other threats in my other comments so I will not go through it again but I welcome any debates regarding the points I listed in my other comments.

    “Military budget expensive? What are we buying that costs so much? Surely WW2 era gun also can what, also shoot bullets. Stuka also can dive bomb. Hello, think lah. One modern warplane is how many millions you know. What.. we just buy one, buy two… no, we buy entire squadrons worth. That’s just airforce, still got Navy ships and your Army MBTs, laser scoped rifles and what not. If want to say, just say “We are comfortable with a second rate army.” If not, yes, I’d like a MBT beside me should we ever go into a scrap.”

    Have you calculated the price for the warplane and tanks that we have acquired? Not to mention, those were already brought a few years back. In case you’re lazy, I have done some simple research and calculations. The details regarding F-35 lightning II is still unknown to us but the latest plane that we brought F-15SG which is a variant of F-15E cost about US$31.1m (http://archive.is/20121212030041/http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=102). We have brought a total of 24 of such planes and maybe getting more due to the contract signed in 2005 and appended in 2007. We may have an upper limit of 80 of such aircraft which will bring the cost to US$2.488b which may have spread over a period of payment or might be a lump sum paid back in 2005.

    As for our leopard tanks, we have about 96 of them acquired during 2010 and each one cost about US$5m (based on various sources, maybe inaccurate). And it only comes up to US$480m (excluding ammunition and many other additional cost). Even if both of our planes and tanks are obtained in 1 lump sum in 1 fiscal year, the cost would only be US$3b which is just 1/3 of our 2012 military budget. Of course these calculations did not take into account of many other costs like training cost, logistic cost, maintenance cost and many other cost. However, we need to compare against our strategy and other armies in order to know whether these money spent are well spent. If despite so much money poured into the army, and yet we are still unable to achieve our grand strategy, then our money is ultimately wasted.

    There’s 1 more thing to note, most if not all other SAF armoured vehicles are under 30 tonnes because there is a lack of infrastructure in our neighbours. Malaysia do have good infrastructure but the likelihood of us going to war with Malaysia is very little (there are many factors regarding this and I have touched on some on my other comments). In fact, we probably don’t need our leopard tanks to deter them due to our close proximity, we have other better offensive strategy against them. However, our leopard tanks may not be as effective in Indonesia due to the nature of their terrain and most of their land are under-developed.

    Another point to note, there are also arguments about spending too much in defense is actually not very helpful. http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/86708:massive-defense-spending-leads-to-job-loss
    In 1 of my other comments, I have also stated “spending on defense and security does not itself create economic growth but only ensure we have an environment whereby our economy can grow (Nordhaus & Tobin (1972))”.

    In conclusion, we should not always assume that our budget are wisely spent (many examples of wastage of budget and funds from our government in many media sources, e.g. YOG). In order to improve, we must always continue to evaluate ourselves and question if we can do better with lesser. I find with your current thinking to be very shallow and naive, and I hope that you would think not within the box and only from our point of view, but also to consider other possible point of view and factors. It is because of this, I think the external military threat from other sovereign states is not as great as many think it is, whereas I see increasing dangerous threats of other forms from many other sources. Just claiming that everything is fine and we do not need any changes/improvements will only make us stagnant and in this fast-paced world, being stagnant for just a while will cause us to lose even more than just our home.

  336. Sometimes I cannot help but feel disgusted with some of the rant some people have with NS. They don’t seem to know what is really going on around us. They seem to think we are always very safe. I wouldn’t be surprised many of these people will not be around to defend Singapore when the need arisen.

  337. To Disheartened, you’re absolutely right!
    Seeing how the country treats it’s soldiers in time of peace, “you die your business” philosophy, slave rates, life long chronic injuries incurred during training, and you pay for your own treatment, unfair punishments, disincentives and disadvantaged in employment opportunities, threats for jail time for missing a fucking exit permit when they fucking jolly well know who’s flying anyway, inconveniences up to half a life time,.

    What the fuck do you expect in return when the need for defence arises? People fucking reap what they sow, defence my ass.

  338. they fucking make our lives moreeeeeeeee n moreeeeeeeeeeeee miserable..pap sucks to the max!!!! ict is a waste of time..

  339. One fucking thing is for sure, it is the MINORITIES, SG MALES that are FORCED to serve NS. How the hell in the world can u ask the public opinions, especially the females about NS? they would NEVER know what it is like to be a fcuking slave.

    SG is NOT democratic, we were FORCED to serve,
    SG is NOT equal, we males are disadvantaged to females and foreigners educationally, financially, socially & economically,
    SG is NOT based on meritocracy, we lose out in ALL aspects.

    Seriously if there is a war and the fucking authoritarians gov forced us to fight, who do you think I would shoot and kill first? and trust me, i am not the only one with these views.

    Yours sincerely,
    A Fucking NS slave

  340. To: NS (National Slavery) is unfair & a waste of time

    Perhaps it’s time to recruit those idle Singapore bitches as comfort women in camps, that would give those bitches a voice on what it’s like to be a slave. Especially those Singapore bitches with nothing to do, takes photos of NSmen sitting in public transport, in additional they will be awarded a Pear of Anguish after 10 years of reservist, in all orifices.

    Seriously speaking, those fucking women taking such photos should be delivered naked tied to a chair to the enemies during war time,

  341. Totally agree with the post! Really, really hate the system! I do not mind the 2/2.5 years of full time NS, what I cannot stand is the reservist that comes after, having to serve 10 more years or until you hit 40 years old, and not to mention the IPPT/RT/IPT that entails with that number of years!

    IPPT after 35 years old is quite difficult for most to clear, and if you do not pass, you have to go RT, or force yourself to go for IPT to try and pass your IPPT! How many days and nights and weekends have to be burned for that? Try balancing work and family commitments as well as try to train for your IPPT, before some of you bitch about “its not difficult” or “its a matter of organising your time”. Working in SIngapore is already so stressful, what with FTs swooping in to compete for your livelihood, and employers expecting you to work OT till the wee hours and still having to go back to camp for training is just plain bullshit. If fitness is so key to protecting the country, why don’t you just release those who cannot pass IPPT, and get those who can pass to defend the country then? And please, take a look at the enormous amount of people reporting for IPT/RT, clear sign that your system sucks and yet you refuse to acknowledge and do something positive about it, instead of “a flexible way to manage your time an book sessions suitable to your own schedule” which is just a whole load of horse crap because you never know when something will crop up.

    And lately I tend to agree with alot of people that why should I defend my own country when my own country is screwing us over by allowing so many FTs in to steal our jobs and livelihoods? And yet these seemingly esteemed group of people that the government thinks so highly of, do not even need to lift a bloody finger in our nation’s defense. Do you even think that when a war comes, these people will not be on the first flight out back to the safety of their own motherland?

  342. Stupid bitch say suck it up? Try doing what we guys do, confined weekends, dirty and grimy and no shower for days outfield, walking 24km in full fatigue, trying your darndest to pass your IPPT, and doing most of these until you are 40, with full time job and a family. And no, you may not and have no time to go for cocktails/dinner/karaoke with your friends, or to chiong that Mango sale because you have ICT, or to go for emergency mani/pedi because you broke a nail shooting off a rifle, and sorry, no time for your kids on weekends because you have to go for IPT/RT.

    Maybe then you can remember the bullshit you just said for the immense lack of understanding that you have, and the stupidity that you possess, then maybe you can try sucking off someone in a higher rank to escape all these crap.

  343. I drove past immigration couple days ago and was checked for 3/4 petrol. The govt fine you and take you to court if you don’t buy petrol from them before leaving the country. This govt panders to big foreign corporate like shell, esso, and making them happy than concern itself with ordiinary sporean. This is the govt that cannot stand to lose its 40% petrol tax from people who wants to drive out of the country.

    This is the govt that only looks after its interest.
    Fight for them when war is upon us?
    Go fuck spider.

  344. This comment has been edited upon request from Alex Liang:

    There have been allegations made recently on Alvinology regarding me getting into trouble during NS by breaking the law and hating NS/Singapore as a result of that. I want to categorically say that this is a completely baseless allegation and is completely untrue. This person who made the allegation couldn’t state when/how this crime supposedly happened, what unit it happened in, where it happened, who was involved, what was the outcome or any of the details of the case. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to try to paint me out to be some kind of vindictive and angry person who has a personal vendetta against NS or Singapore.

    I served 2 years 4 months of NS from 1995 – 1997: I learnt to keep my head down, mouth shut and stay out of trouble whilst in NS. I would never become vindictive or angry as a result of anything that I had to endure or put up with in life – that’s not the person I am. Perhaps it’s my stance of choosing to take the path of least resistance – it’s easier to keep your head down and not speak up then to try to challenge the SAF; and it was easier for me to leave Singapore than to try to take on the PAP.

    That BBC interview was in fact abridged as I talked about a range of other issues that made me want to live in the UK. I talked about my love of London amongst other things and sadly all that didn’t make the final edit and it was focused on national service instead – that was the editor’s decision, not mine. I don’t get to tell the BBC editor what to put into the final article.

    The outspoken nature of my blog has made me a target for many in Singapore who see me as a quitter, traitor and turncoat – I never expected everyone to agree with everything I have to say – but as long as I can stimulate a healthy debate on the issues discussed, then I feel I have achieved my goal as a blogger. The name calling I can put up with, the smearing however, crosses the line into slander and ironically, is a criminal offence. Yup, the person accusing me of being a criminal is in fact breaking the law himself in making those allegation. If you have proof or evidence, bring it on – otherwise don’t make baseless accusations. #libel

    This is a vindictive smear campaign to try to discredit me and tarnish my reputation by someone who doesn’t like what I said. I am more than happy to talk to anyone who disagrees with me on any issue I blog about – but I am disgusted by those who resort to such underhand means when they don’t like what I say. I am open and honest on my blog (I use my real name and often post photographs of myself) – so it is just impossible to try to fight people who try to smear me anonymously, on forums and on Alvin’s blog. I thank Alvin for giving me the opportunity to clear the air on this.

    http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/a-red-herring-my-sex-life.html

  345. This comment has been edited upon request from Alex Liang:

    There have been allegations made recently on Alvinology regarding me getting into trouble during NS by breaking the law and hating NS/Singapore as a result of that. I want to categorically say that this is a completely baseless allegation and is completely untrue. This person who made the allegation couldn’t state when/how this crime supposedly happened, what unit it happened in, where it happened, who was involved, what was the outcome or any of the details of the case. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to try to paint me out to be some kind of vindictive and angry person who has a personal vendetta against NS or Singapore.

    I served 2 years 4 months of NS from 1995 – 1997: I learnt to keep my head down, mouth shut and stay out of trouble whilst in NS. I would never become vindictive or angry as a result of anything that I had to endure or put up with in life – that’s not the person I am. Perhaps it’s my stance of choosing to take the path of least resistance – it’s easier to keep your head down and not speak up then to try to challenge the SAF; and it was easier for me to leave Singapore than to try to take on the PAP.

    That BBC interview was in fact abridged as I talked about a range of other issues that made me want to live in the UK. I talked about my love of London amongst other things and sadly all that didn’t make the final edit and it was focused on national service instead – that was the editor’s decision, not mine. I don’t get to tell the BBC editor what to put into the final article.

    The outspoken nature of my blog has made me a target for many in Singapore who see me as a quitter, traitor and turncoat – I never expected everyone to agree with everything I have to say – but as long as I can stimulate a healthy debate on the issues discussed, then I feel I have achieved my goal as a blogger. The name calling I can put up with, the smearing however, crosses the line into slander and ironically, is a criminal offence. Yup, the person accusing me of being a criminal is in fact breaking the law himself in making those allegation. If you have proof or evidence, bring it on – otherwise don’t make baseless accusations. #libel

    This is a vindictive smear campaign to try to discredit me and tarnish my reputation by someone who doesn’t like what I said. I am more than happy to talk to anyone who disagrees with me on any issue I blog about – but I am disgusted by those who resort to such underhand means when they don’t like what I say. I am open and honest on my blog (I use my real name and often post photographs of myself) – so it is just impossible to try to fight people who try to smear me anonymously, on forums and on Alvin’s blog. I thank Alvin for giving me the opportunity to clear the air on this.

    http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/a-red-herring-my-sex-life.html

  346. NS Crap

    I would not waste time reading his CV.

    If you would just surf around, you can easily find those comments.

    Are you his current partner?

  347. Larry Campervan

    I don’t even know who he is till you gave such a scandalous detailed writeup on him. I wouldn’t care to surf around for his information either, seem to me like you are more interested in him than anybody else.

  348. This comment has been edited upon request from Alex Liang:

    There have been allegations made recently on Alvinology regarding me getting into trouble during NS by breaking the law and hating NS/Singapore as a result of that. I want to categorically say that this is a completely baseless allegation and is completely untrue. This person who made the allegation couldn’t state when/how this crime supposedly happened, what unit it happened in, where it happened, who was involved, what was the outcome or any of the details of the case. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to try to paint me out to be some kind of vindictive and angry person who has a personal vendetta against NS or Singapore.

    I served 2 years 4 months of NS from 1995 – 1997: I learnt to keep my head down, mouth shut and stay out of trouble whilst in NS. I would never become vindictive or angry as a result of anything that I had to endure or put up with in life – that’s not the person I am. Perhaps it’s my stance of choosing to take the path of least resistance – it’s easier to keep your head down and not speak up then to try to challenge the SAF; and it was easier for me to leave Singapore than to try to take on the PAP.

    That BBC interview was in fact abridged as I talked about a range of other issues that made me want to live in the UK. I talked about my love of London amongst other things and sadly all that didn’t make the final edit and it was focused on national service instead – that was the editor’s decision, not mine. I don’t get to tell the BBC editor what to put into the final article.

    The outspoken nature of my blog has made me a target for many in Singapore who see me as a quitter, traitor and turncoat – I never expected everyone to agree with everything I have to say – but as long as I can stimulate a healthy debate on the issues discussed, then I feel I have achieved my goal as a blogger. The name calling I can put up with, the smearing however, crosses the line into slander and ironically, is a criminal offence. Yup, the person accusing me of being a criminal is in fact breaking the law himself in making those allegation. If you have proof or evidence, bring it on – otherwise don’t make baseless accusations. #libel

    This is a vindictive smear campaign to try to discredit me and tarnish my reputation by someone who doesn’t like what I said. I am more than happy to talk to anyone who disagrees with me on any issue I blog about – but I am disgusted by those who resort to such underhand means when they don’t like what I say. I am open and honest on my blog (I use my real name and often post photographs of myself) – so it is just impossible to try to fight people who try to smear me anonymously, on forums and on Alvin’s blog. I thank Alvin for giving me the opportunity to clear the air on this.

    http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/a-red-herring-my-sex-life.html

  349. Guys, I feel 2 years NS is fair IF it fulfills below Criteria:
    ————————————————————————
    1) We have priority over jobs ( Korea does that for those who served)
    2) Our Salary should be at least on par with Bangala ( not even close to bangala rite now)
    3) We get treated with respect regardless of ranks ( we are not real soldier anyway)
    4) Do not get charged everytime never complete RT ( is this what we deserved after serving 2yr)
    5) NO BIAS for White Horse that comes from some political PARTY member ( if u rmb TAN )
    6) Give us our basic human rights & not tied to military law after 2 years conscription (NS)
    7) every FT to be taxed to pay the local males for additional allowance.

    ELSE SG MALES we should say no to those minority who set up this bullshit laws to bind us,& using stupid excuse like protecting your country is honorable when SOME evil party is plotting to forsake you in this land to FT – such a pity when it is our ancestor who builds till today & it is not us harvesting the profits but PINOYS,PRC & ALIENS who did nth & gain/yield our harvest & jobs.
    As a group we will be strong & unbreakable.DO NOT LET SOME “PARTY” who set this stupid rules to bind us when their decendant can be GENERALS (LSL) while your son be LCP to serve them… Blood has to be shed… We shall bring this to international attention if neccessary. LSL may become the next saddam hussein, gadaffi if we succeed.
    “The best way to control a country- is to put their male population into NS under the excuse of serving the nation, as they will have no time to revolt”

    Regards,

    Wise men

  350. MINDEF IB caight
    Brandon & Larry Campervan, dogs of the same kennel with a gay agenda caught with their or should I say his pants down, making a quick escape with his tail between his legs. You should be put to sleep, bad dog, sons of mindef bitches!

  351. I haven’t seen the full length of the comments but the first few is enough for me to get a feel of the whole situation. I am a NSman, and definitely feel the pain of the 2+ years lost to NS. My peers have gone ahead to be FT in other countries while I am still an average worker in Singapore. Yet I can say that I do not regret having NS.

    Despite what everyone says about the lack of civic ownership, I am convinced it is up to the individual to own his country. Or if not, play the system to your advantage. That is how successful people get what they want. FTs find their way to SG for benefits. It is still through their effort in their home country.

    If you really want to change the situation, quit posting angry comments and actually go out and be noticed. Otherwise just play the system and get whatever you can get. Singapore is a biz hub. I am sure there is plenty of openings for you to dig out and play to each own’s advantage.

    Besides that, let us note the reason we really hate the military —- We do not have a sense of patriotism before conscripting. That should be the reason why we are angry with our political system and economic infrastructure. Look at other countries, people are conscripting into the military because they possess some sense of patriotism or loyalty. That is where the leaders in Singapore have failed (political and others)

  352. we male singaporeans protect this country with our blood sweat and tears..total of 12 yrs sufferings..giving the most precious time of our life for the nation..in the end we get nothing but shit..while ft did nothing and have all the treats..saf suckks to the max!!!!!!!!!!!! singaporeans are slaves to the country and male singaporeans just suffer twice as much..

  353. i really do felt for each and everyone here..we male singaporean already served 2yrs or 2 and half years for this nation..which is more than enough..yet we still have to go through a 10 yrs reservist cycle of hell..a total of 12 yrs!!!! our most precious time..by the time we come out rod,some already 40..old,half dead and worthless..every yr reservist we have to go through stupid things like kana charge for hair cut,bringing cam phone..forget to update status ippt,rt ect..everything they do is charge charge charge!!!! money money money!!!!!! we already suffered sooo much outside having to compete with ft for our rice bowl and survival..yet army is adding burden to us!!!! nobody gives a flying fuckk of what we had done..nobody will come and say thank u for protecting this country or the sacrifice u made for this nation..saf till today has not change to be better infact it just got worse..i saw ns men who are 41 and yet still serving becoz of saf screwed up and delayed their time..its totally unfair!!!!! why only males must serve?? we are not the only citizens this is country..we faught and worked soo hard to protect this nation and ft just mock and laughing at us..wtf?? we are all slaves of this fucking country and being used untill no more and being dump like rubbish..i dun see any pride in serving anymore,we gave everything we have for this country,but all the benifits goes to ft..seriously male citizens of singapore need to stand up and try to make the change somehow..

  354. I understand how all ns man feels. But life itself is unfair.
    I come from a poor family, I’ve to work part time to support myself through my studying years. In debt because of school fees. I got my license but I’d never get to drive. I never sat on a plane before.
    What is fairness..? There is no fairness in this world. Lets accept this fact and work even harder for life.

  355. Hello everyone,
    For me I feel that NS will not help us in a military situation.
    1) if we launch a pre emptive strike against Malaysia, it would be another Vietnam war, dense vegetation making it easy for the defenders to slaughter our troops and having a much brigger army than us. Thousands of flagged trapped coffins would be returning back
    2) in a defensive war threats like Malaysia, Indonesia etc Will employ a war of attrition – effectively the side with more numbers would eventually win which is definitely not Singapore
    Hence why I feel NS should not be implemented

  356. Comments on the size of the Singaporean army is complete bullshit. Read this to get a better overview on why the entire freaking system should be scrapped or changed. http://sonofadud.com/guest-spot/gordon-lee-on-national-service/

    and extremely great review of the entire system. We are not at war (unlike Isreal or SK), we dont have thousands of missiles pointed directly at us (like taiwan but even taiwan is slowly phasing out its NS). We are in a relatively safe zone. So stop believing in 40 year old lies and modern day deceit. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE REVIEWED. IF WE DONT TAKE ACTION NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE AND OUR ENTIRE FUTURE GENERATION WILL BE PUT AT A DISADVANTAGE ESPECIALLY IN THIS INCREASINGLY COMPETITIVE WORLD.

  357. F35 plane if we really buy, we are fools. Japan face a lot of problem with that plan Liao. It is a lousy 4th generation fighter plane. Although we have good diplomatic relation with the states, that does not mean we have to be “Roberto”. It’s not like we can’t build our fighter plane or we do not have other source for military equipment.. Other countries have better 4th generation fighter planes that we actually can buy..

  358. I never hesitated when giving up my citizenship. I am now in the U.S.. My children have a great (stress-free) education and happy childhood. Here is an acid test for you – if you were to be born today, where would you choose to be born given what you know?

    Best.

  359. I am in my late twenties and living in the U.S. now. If I ever have kids, they are most certainly not going to go through Singapore’s education system. I would want them to be more than soulless digits for the economy.

    Forever thankful/grateful to my parents who got me and my sister out of the country once they had the opportunity to do so (I was not happy about it at first, as a teen, but years later after living in a country where you have fundamental rights as a human being, the difference is so stark!!).

  360. Well our Defence industry makes up for 60% of the National Budget i believe. Also this provides alot of jobs in Singapore…

    Govt should just give us SINGAPORE MALES who SERVED NS more benefits and level the paying field instead of giving us stupid NS voucher which is honestly a very poor way to ‘thank’ us….

  361. I’d like to share my experience regarding NS

    I’ve served 2 and a half years and still doing my ICTs whenever I have to be called up.

    There’s 2 issues that need to be addressed regarding NS
    I will not be debating the 1st issue which everyone is talking about which is the need for NS. We cannot deny that we need some form of security and armed forces, its not possible to ignore this totally.

    1) NS can be shortened.

    Of the 2 and a half years, many of us can agree that about 1 year is just waiting around, doing nothing. We wait for alot of things. If you talk about just pure fitness improvement, that can be squeezed in 1 year, and technical and training can be done quickly as well. The fact is alot of times, we do quite a bit of repetitive stuff and when the job is done we spend the same amount of time waiting around, cleaning, doing things which dumb our minds.

    2) SG men have to marry when we are older.

    We enter the army at the prime of our age, when we just finish our studies, awaiting to go to universities. NS dumbs our brains, we are taught not to think. After serving, we have to somehow prepare for university. On top of that, by the time we graduate we are around 25, 26 years of age.. looking for a job for the first time…

    Probably some of us might have lost our partners by then so we would have to start from scratch. But the problem with Singaporean society now is most girls would want a guy who has a stable job or some form of financial stability. How do you suppose we can apply for a house by the age of 30? Is it possible to do that?

    3) ICT – a disruption to our normal lives.

    The Army and Society do not fit. There is a clash of philosophy when we look at Army life and our normal lives. It’s two opposing natures. To want to incorporate army into our normal lives is just ridiculous. We have normal lives and to have ICT interrupt our normal lives is just horrible. The experience is just brain numbing. Some might argue that they love going back to serve, but many love it because they can escape from their jobs and still get paid.

    Those who are freelancers or have a business, (trying to be successful in their careers) have it the hardest. It does not mattter that an individual who has started a business, to just stop for 2 weeks just for ICT. The army is a machine that does not recognise hardship of men outside of the army life. It does not care, it only cares about percentage attendace rates, devoid of any real problems that ns men have. For our men all they can do is just call up the NS customer service center (Which is handled third party?).

    4) Where we serve, the nation’s women have relationships with more capable, richer, foreigners, and our jobs go to our competitors. How do you think our national service man feel walking along the streets in our uniform in clark quay for example. Do you think we feel proud? Think about it.

    What are we protecting?

  362. If females were made to serve ns, i think 10% will die at the front gate, 20% at the place where they get shaved bald, 30% on the field, and the rest… 40%…. maybe AWOL. Not looking down on girls, im a female myself, girl will never understand the pain and suffering of a ns men. I can only comfort my bf by giving him a masage to soothe his aching body, and frankly speaking, i think the time he spent suffering can be put to a better use. 😦 sry guys, not able to feel your pain.

  363. NS is necessary and so is ICT.
    Sure now is the generation of technology and cyber warfare and most battles don’t happen on physical soil. But then, that’s just it, the fact that only most are fought technologically means that some are fought physically and losing once marks the end of our country. ICT is necessary because then what will all the able bodied men in their 20s-40s do during war. Hide with the women and children? It is more likely that they would be conscripted to battle. And in that moment wouldn’t you rather be physically and mentally prepared during the years of re service then thrown to the front lines with your last experience holding a gun happening at 19? It is for your own good as much as it is for the country’s .
    You claim foreigners should be conscripted as well for the sake of equality but honestly do you think that in times of war all the FT will remain to fight? Doubt it. I’m not even sure that guys like you would. They’d probably return home to their country, after all they are foreign and have no real stake in this country. But you do and so do I and that is why we will stay and fight, equipped with NS and years of re service.
    Your point that women should service is similarly irrational. Honestly, most women will be more of liabilities than help. They’re not called the fairer sex for nothing. The point of fighting a war is to win, what’s the point of equality if it’s only for the sake it. Additionally, in the corporate sphere women do have to take the time off when they are pregnant and that evens out the playing field for men who get called in regularly.

    With that said I do agree that the amenities afforded to NSmen are lacking, like the pay. However that doesn’t negate the benefits nor rationality of the NS system. Also I’m really sorry to hear that you were discriminated during NS, that is a horrible thing. But then that becomes a problem with the people and not with the system. Hence NS should stay.

    P.S whoever said that NS dumbs the mind please read what you just said cause that’s like saying PE in schools makes our kids stupid. Pretty sure that logic is more stupid than the system.

  364. a sergeant major and some privates went on a navigation excercise. they went for a few days with a huge pack of supplies, at least 10kg. Sergeant major trekked very fast, always going forward without rest. Each time the privates wanted a break or to have lunch, the sergeant major would call them weak.
    The privates wondered why the sergeant major could keep on going without even taking breaks and having lunch, only eating noodles at night.
    They check his field pack supplies, and found that there is nothing inside, only instant noodles.
    they told sergeant major, and for that he agreed to switch field pack with a private for the rest of the navigation.
    Upon switching, the sergeant major suddenly kept very quiet and his speed also slowed down. He now knows why the men are doing the navigation so slowly and feeling so tired.

    For those who do not have to serve ns and have never felt that weight on your shoulders…food for thought…

  365. To say your comparison of pe in schools and ns is ridiculous would be the understatement of the millennium. Please, just listen to yourself. Does pe in school subject one to 2 entire years of intellectually depressing activities? I don’t think so. Last time I checked, pe lessons are restricted to a couple of hours a week. And the fact that one undergoes pe implies that he is enrolled in an academic institution, which is of course intellectually stimulating, unlike ns. To make the preposterous proposition relating ns to pe and using it to justify how ns does not dumb people down is a testament to your naivety, with respect to this particular issue.

    Anyway, yes ns might be necessary. But if ns, ict, ippt and rt are the costs of living in Singapore, or more specifically being a male singaporean, then I say with absolute conviction, to hell with Singapore, because I tell you it’s not worth staying here. The perks of being a citizen of this country far underweigh the costs, especially if you were unfortunate enough to be born a male here.

    On a side note, Singapore has the 2nd highest GMI (global militarization index) value in the world, only outdone by Israel, who is of course surrounded by hostile nations and has fought countless wars. Singapore is in a region nothing like the one Israel is in and has a political status quo the couldn’t be more different. I leave it to you to decide if we’re taking this defence business too seriously. Or maybe or just another one of those deluded patriots who think we should spend more on defence than healthcare.

  366. First to the Alex or any other who followed suit. I’m glad you have left and thank you for that.

    For all those fellow reservists and to the youths who are about to be enlisted. Yes much like what i would do to avoid doing NS before i tried many ways. I still went through it 2.5 Years. I still have 5 more Reservist years left. And yeah i hate the yearly birthday wish.

    But on the other hand, even if your life is yours, does it harm you to be healthier? No doubt whether u do it like a piece of cake or fail miserably until every year 20 RT Sessions. How about asking yourself, what if one fine day your daughter is being molested and the dude is a fit runner and YOU the one with united nations belly can do nothing because you refuse to work it out? Of cos you can report this to the police but then again Policemen are doing NS too. What are the odds? Your daughter’s molester runs freely or grabbed by your very own hand or pray and hope the Police will nab this person?

    Yeah its perfectly understandable that some of us getting on age have physical issues that needs some serious reconstruction.

    I kept seeing we have no need or its redundant to serve NS. Think again, if we really do not have NS, what would u guys really be doing? You really think so your so going to earn big incomes to flaunt? Whether you earn it big or not really boils down to how competent you are on personal level. In which case if your really that competent then you wouldn’t be worried about doing NS in the first place. Furthermore as referred above, if no NS duty, you won’t be having more SCDF, Policemen. So what can result in this? A typical street at night extremely unsafe as you can be robbed, raped, etc. If multiple fires, only a handful can be saved while the rest would leave their fate to lady luck.

    What about war? Its true we are small but we kick asses. Why do u think so much of our income tax is paid on Defence technology? Becos we don’t have a large army isn’t it?

    If truely we are being picked on and we have to defend. If you who truely hates all of this, take a look around again and imagine what would your mother/sister/wife/mistress/lovers expressions be in those situation? Run Away? With Air Space closed, Roads out blocked, Where to go? You gonna carry your baby and swim across to somewhere? Instead of whining all the time, maybe think abit?

    On foreigners, true that they are incoming and hogging our every aspect. Then again, what have you guys done besides complaining? We are already a small nation and you guys who pathetically produce 1 kid and complaining how high expenses are. Which points back to the very beginning your competency. So who is really to blame? The Gov, MINDEF or you? So what is the common excuses for low production? High work load – High Expenses – Wife Problem. Really? Yet can go chionging with friends to clubs, go KTVs, Watch Late night soccer matches, etc. Yeah Right, you can say you don’t do all these often, Sure.

    For the Women, be understanding and stop being so picky on everything. From many sources most women all complaining the lack of time to nurture the kids. Need to work etc. Seriously? Back then our mothers time, they work too. Was life back then easier?

    End point here is, for those complaining endlessly, keep it up and go on with your life doing that. Either you quickly go elsewhere cos we can’t depend on you anyways or stay here and be our sacrifice if there is a war, you would make good sacrifices and finally do something for your country.

    PS: For those complaining idling in ICT, really? If ICT ask you to really all out training, you sure u will not complain? In fact in the ICTs i seen, the idling is your weak participation. I bet you if really make u go through exactly what is the real standard you sure complain. (common complain? – We reservists only lei)

  367. It’s not just about the singaporean male that is being treated as second class citizens. Us common singaporeans are all being treated as second class citizens despite having worked our asses to be educated as high as we can. I think NS and reservist is necessary for a small nation like us. It’s not the NS that sets singaporeans apart from the supposed ‘Foreign Talent’ that singapore is constantly bringing in. It is laughable to other nations and enticing for their people to work here because of the way our policies, be it governmental or office, work around to benefit the ‘foreign expats’. There is no wrong in having ‘foreign talent’. But how can citizens who should have acclaimed rights and benefits have to fight for them? Certainly we should act out our political rights to show that singapore does not need a 6.9 million population to sustain economic growth when our citizens enjoy less and less rights as compared to ‘foreign talent’.

    And on a side note, NS makes guys fitter and more attractive! (:

  368. There is no incentive in serving NS. A slight increase in your paycheck as compared to your female counterparts? I call that bullshit. Whether it be that they start working that the same organization the same time as the day you enlisted or they choose to pursue a degree first, they’re far superior to you in any way. For the former, in 2 years they can expect an annual increment in their salary, which means your effort to serve NS for that mere incentive is evened out. And for the latter, it’s pretty self-explanatory. A degree as compared to an IB qualification at best? It’s a no-brainer.

    Stop deluding yourselves, for those of you think NS is beneficial in any way. It’s just an unnecessary pit stop in every Singaporean men’s life.

  369. I am an ordinary Singaporean like the rest of us here. I neither like nor hate NS and reservist. But I must admit NS helped in my maturity from a boy to a man. Personally I treat NS as time served back to the nation and get a little payout (allowance was really bad 16 years ago) and lots of fitness and mental training. Maybe that will make some guys feel better??

    To be honest most Singaporeans are just too darn pampered and expect life to be easy? Please do not kid yourself and grow up seriously. Life is unfair and will continue to remain that way regardless of where in the world you live and breathe. Deal with it like a man or just shut up lol…

  370. @Janice If you really want to say that guys are being whinny on serving NS and so on, than don’t blame us when I tell you that having period every month and giving birth is just part of a female life cycle stop complaining about it and don’t use PMS as an excuse for mood swings or to take any maternity leave or MC due to menstrual cramps or child delivery.

  371. @Janice 2. Why is Singapore so well-situated in a location without natural disasters? Why is Singapore so strategically located that so many ships want to stopover here?
    – This would constitute why so many countries are always, at every minute and every second, want to takeover this piece of land to boost their imports and exports. Besides, without natural disasters, this would be a haven for any country to build its city in. At the current state when Singapore has developed to such a hub, you think the other countries are contented with watching us grow? Once our defense is down, look who’s gonna arrive and take our homeland away first.

    we dont even get a portion of the countries earnings why should we bothering defending somebody else wealth mountain… better yet they are increasing every shit thing they can get their hands on….

  372. Hi everyone!

    Having read this topic or issue rather from October 2013, I have come to realize that all these comments about NS, ICTs, female NSFs and disruption of economical life or marital status if you will, had brought me to some reasoning which I will share my opinions on them.

    1. National Service duration – I believe nowadays, the duration of our NS is round about 2 years or shorter if you have not been enlisted under Prep-Course due to your physical status. I find the duration sensible that our body needs time to adjust to strengthen itself and after passing out, new skills to learn in a new vocation which takes time as well. There after, scenario based trainings or exercises to simulate real life action which gives us mental preparation.

    2. NS makes us dumb – Really? I guess besides your own happy time, we’re probably surrounded by our families, friends, girlfriends and so on. I guess I took it upon myself to be proactive and sat down and began my mind mapping; What can I do with my time? What do I want learn next? I think there’s a lot to learn if we’re keen to. I guess we just have to look beyond the situation we’re in and act on ourselves. C’mon, I was a ITE student back then.

    3. ICT – Lol! This one I really hate to attend. Luckily, I’m smart enough to land myself an overseas employment. Hehe! But hey, look at us, Singapore is really small and need every capable men to step forward to protect our nation. Call me a MINDEF IB if you will but I am looking beyond myself with an open-mind and objectively – I’m not a country on my own.

    4. Female NSFs? – Hiak Hiak Hiak! I wish too. But ask yourselves. Remember those days when we were young and questions like “what would you wanna be when you grow up?” Let’s say everyone decided to be a doctor, lawyer, pilot or any of those nobilities. Who is gonna be your bank teller, housekeeper, salesman and whatever not? Right? What I’m saying is, we can’t force these ladies to be who we are. Honestly speaking, men are stronger bodied, so leave it to us to hold the guns. Besides, there are also women who sign up as Full-time so it’s not so bad. At least some women like the action and camp paint. Lol!

    5. FTs to join NS? – Seriously, FTs are here not because they choose to be here. Look at us, didn’t we mention that we’re a business hub? So if MNCs here bring in their experts from their land, what can we do? Are we able to take on the knowledge on running their companies? Speaking of which, I’m a FT in another country too. I have had people telling me how our country is a “fine” city, clean, low-crime rate and also our men serving NS. I’m always proud to share with them what I went through.

    In conclusion, I guess many of us will cry till the cow come home. However, nothing will ever change in regards to NS or national security, not for just a few unhappiness. Unless the government shares the same sentiment. We may be upset cuz we’re just thinking within our boundary. Try managing a 6mil population in a city-island and you’ll know how we all need to have an objective mindset. We don’t live in this society just by ourselves, call me a patriot, though we do not have duty of care for whoever unrelated to us. But humanity and morality still plays a part if we are living in this world. We may jolly well migrate to a greener pasture, maybe NS will not be an issue anymore…but that’s all not isn’t it? Look at the news and you shall see what’s going on.

  373. Your logic is warped. If you are served shit for lunch everyday, you will shut up and eat it, dealing with it “like a man”? It also takes a man to speak against the conventions.

  374. NS is needed. The mandatory service serves to show investors that Singapore is indeed, a well-protected trading hub with excellent geographical location. Also, considering Singapore is a well-developed and still-rapidly-developing nation, it is no wonder that Singaporeans grow up pampered and take things for granted. Put this into consideration; do you think Singaporeans would step up and sign for NS if it’s not mandatory?

    However, that is one issue on its own and I’m definitely not defending the NS system. Read on.

    I have completed my two years of service, and before ORD, I asked around in my unit to see people’s opinions on whether or not was that two years really necessary. I’m from one of the ‘more siong units (name hidden)’ and our training, not going into details as I doubt I’m supposed to say too much, was basically going through a vicious cycle of training→mission→training for the whole 1.5 years or so. Going back to my unit mates’ opinions, almost everyone agreed that two years was a little too long considering we could have gone through say, just two missions, and we would have learnt the exact same things. One year was more than enough.

    Before I get onto life after ORD, let’s talk about medical conditions, health and fitness during NS. The army does not give a hoot about soldiers’ medical conditions, unless it’s serious enough to become a questionable point if brought out to light in media (hint: Singaporeans are known to be ‘complain queens and kings’). Why do I say this? Because I experienced it myself. During my final year in polytechnic, I was knocked down by a pickup truck while crossing the road. Granted, it was my own fault for not seeking proper medical attention but that’s not the point here. I gritted my teeth, and went through BMT in Tekong stubbornly. It was the worst decision I could have made, as I should have sounded out before training in BMT even started. I got posted into this ‘siong unit (again, name hidden so that I won’t get into trouble)’. It came as a shock to me, but at the same time, a small part of me felt excited because I was curious about how tough this legendary ‘siong unit”s training is. That was naivety on my part. Shortly after training in ‘siong unit’ started, I sounded out and went for a long series of checkups in hospitals. Here’s the thing: camp medical personnel automatically think of soldiers who walk into the medical centers as the ‘chao keng warriors’, or more derogatorily known as ‘pai ka pai chiu’ or ‘pikachu’. While this is partially true because of irresponsible soldiers who want to get a cheap ticket out of the tough training, there are those who were genuinely in pain. Needless to say, I was treated as a ‘pikachu’ as well, and was used by the company for manual labors. I experienced sharp pains in my backs, hips and knees when I carry heavy load, and specialists outside told me discs in my backbone are shifting out of position, also known as slipped disc. However, medical officers did not listen to any of it. My specialist isn’t any good either, refusing to let me take an MRI scan and as a result, I have nothing to show. Of course, the specialist has nothing to do with the army and I have since made a complaint to the hospital regarding said doctor and action has been taken against the quack. After half a year of struggling, I decided to give up and go through training with the rest, as genuine or not, I did feel bad about not having to go through with training while my platoon mates went through hell. My platoon mates were able to sympathize with my situation, but not the other platoons. That, and my superiors pressed me to go for training, saying ‘the pain is just in your mind, just need to be able to tahan it’. Of course, I don’t blame them as there isn’t any convenient tool to measure pain intensity as of yet so they don’t know how it felt. Now a NSman, I go for checkups occasionally, and my back’s condition is a lot worse than before. This is going to affect me for the rest of my life. Now, I experience those sharp pains in my back and hips from time to time at completely random timings.

    Okay long rant, let’s get into things that aren’t so personal.

    It varies here and there depending on the intensity of your unit’s training, but if say, you were placed in Guards or Commandos (in short, the ‘siong’ ones), do you really think it would have no impact on whatever you learnt in school before enlisting? I was a polytechnic student in an IT course, and after I ORD’d, the painful truth struck me; the plain repeating warfare training clearly ate at whatever programming knowledge or whatsoever I have picked up in my polytechnic days. TL;DR, my knowledge was forcefully robbed of. I went through 3 years of polytechnic life for naught, as I can’t even remember how basic HTML and CSS tables look like. This affects only a small group of soldiers, but fact is, there are people whose education has been laid to waste just because of the wretched training.

    Now onto life as a reservist. Ops manning is done so frequently, it feels like you’re being robbed off your freedom even after ORD. Again, this varies from people to people (I’ve got friends who never got notified for manning once even after 4 years, while I’ve been notified every 9 months or so). But what do I mean by ‘being robbed off your freedom’? Simply put, Singapore needs to do away with the idea of ‘random activation’. Yes, units are activated randomly. Every single time during the 2-3 weeks of manning, me and my peers are always praying hard that we don’t get activated. They tell us that random activation simulates how unpredictable real crisis is in life, and while that is true to a certain extent, wouldn’t set activation drills at a regular interval (eg. 2 years) achieve the same results? After all, all they wanted is that we still know what to do when disaster strikes and we have to be activated. Why go through that ‘random activation’ nonsense and put unnecessary pressure on the working force?

    Next, fitness. They claim that NSmen have to take IPPT and go through RT/IPT if they fail, because they want to make sure that their fighting forces are kept in fit condition. It is true, but only to a certain extent. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m from ‘siong unit’. While fitness does play a role in what we’re required to do (carry heavy loads and march ridiculous distances), I’ve seen many IPPT failures who were nonetheless, excellent soldiers during missions. What does that show? Physical fitness doesn’t matter much, if not at all. Mental strength is more important than all your biceps nonsense. Then comes their secondary reasoning, health. Health! If health is really the concern right here, why do I frequently see people saying that RT participants were treated as though they were NSFs, being shouted at, etc? Why do we have to get charged for not going to RT, and even possibly going to detention barracks for that? In truth, Singaporean males are soldiers until they’re 40-year-old or so, “NS is just 2 years” is just a nice, albeit poor, way of hiding the ugly truth. Before I forget, if they were so concerned about health and fitness then what I pointed out back in medical conditions (the long, boring paragraph) during NS time contradicts with this.

    There are still a lot of problems I find with the current military system in Singapore, but these are the major ones I feel need to be addressed. In short, NS mustn’t be abolished, but it needs to be reviewed and possibly, shortened. More importantly, what happens after ORD needs to be reviewed as it’s a major hindrance to everyday life, and makes you feel like Singapore put a “Belongs to Singapore” stamp on you and limited your freedom from the day you entered NS.

  375. Oh, I forgot about ICT. IMO 5 years of ICT is more than enough. We DID give up 2 years of our freedom for Singapore’s sake, and even after that, Singapore still wants to lock us down for the next 10 years or so, and even longer for the higher ranks. What gives? I’ve got friends who are seeking for long-term overseas employment just to escape from this utter madness, and I encourage them to do so despite what media likes to say, listing out the “good things in Singapore compared to other countries”.

    What they’re doing currently is like saying we Singaporean males are properties of Singapore. It’s time that they face the problem directly instead of merely doing tiny adjusts here and there and hope people can be satisfied with those (eg. minor pay increments, allowing camera phones in certain areas, etc).

  376. i love my country no matter What. I am very proud of Ns men. My dad alWays tell me story about ns. i do admire them. i am a girl and my dad and mum encourage me to ns but due to being ill a a child i cannot go ns or be a police Woman. even tho some sg ppl are shitty, but this does not stop me of being proud to be Singaporean. this is Where our forefather Work hard and let us live in comfortably. there are competition but We can Work hard and shoW them When We singaporean Work hand in hand nothing is impossible. do not give up just like that. because We are stronger than anything and anybody else.cheer and peace.

  377. All talk no action….what’s the use? Discussion is just only ranting the same old pain that every males are going thru…

  378. Reason,
    If the NS is causing so much things to our male citizen, the system is a sure problematic system. I agree on a strong defense, is important for every country, but soldiers needs to be feed and take care, if not who will fights for the country? As Chinese saying, feed soldiers a thousand days, is only to be use one of the day!

  379. I just dont like the “reservist system”… we get charged for not taking physical test… and when you fail the test, 20 day remedial training for you… go abroad also need to apply, like a prisoner. And have to serves 10 years cycles… 14 days each. no excuses even you have importance project going on… another reason for your foreigner boss to rethink hiring you and then after sacrificial 2 yrs to Singapore, everyone esle have a head start of you. even when graduation show the first question the employer ask you will be : have you compllete NS… and then you miss a great chance there…” even now when I want to get a degree… after i graduated from there I will be 30 yrs old… well just complaining…

  380. You don’t go around and bash up people, there is laws in Singapore. Defense is very important, but if the people lost their heart, no matter how advance your weapon, you will never win a war. This is facts.

  381. You should sign on provided, you got no criminal record. My platoon mate like you, too bad he got criminal record. Mindef don’t want him. But I can say he is the perfect soldier.

  382. From all the comments, this is what I’ve gathered.

    1) NS in Singapore is really stupid, but something that this country cannot dun have. Agree that PAP and LKY very good and salute them to bring Singapore till today state. But… Really time for some major change. Maybe increase the relief for income tax for NSmen, or make Safra membership free. Give some extra benefits lah.

    2) Serving NS is really a waste of time and this had made us lose out to FT. This point is confirmed, and govt should really do something about it like e.g revising down minister pay by 10% and I tell you the pay of our NS boys can go up 100% also still got left.

    3) No point asking FT or women to serve NS as this is purely waste of time and useless. Given so many people also point out the stupidity of asking these FT to serve NS. What should really be done here is ask our dear PAP to do something about it. Maybe let NS men withdraw their hard earn CPF partially when R.O.D? So that can compensate us who do the ippt/rt/ict for 10 freaking cycles. At the end of the day, the CPF money also belong to us, it is only fair to let us draw it out loh.

    Just my two cents worth of comments. #justsaying

  383. @alvinlogy: No my reasoning is not warped as you just fail to see the bigger picture which is to learn from the hardship and “shit eaten” as you said and then use that experience to improve yourself. This will ensure a better life for yourself and family. It is a very simple logic but most cannot see it or understand as they prefer the easy way out or just bitch about it.

  384. “I treat NS as time served back to the nation and get a little allowance and lots of fitness and mental training. Maybe that will make some guys feel better??”. Your last sentence already suggests that you’re using self-comfort to delude yourself, and why do we have to go through with it quietly? Can’t we even voice out opinions? Who are you to decide for everyone that they should “take it like a man or shut up”? See, I understand most Singaporeans have the “dont like it, suck thumb lah” mentality. No one likes putting their neck on the line. One wrong step, they could possibly see themselves behind bars. But voicing out harmless opinions isn’t a crime.

    If unreasonable stuffs are being done to you, you voice out instead of endure it. Improve yourself from hardship? Maybe if the hardship is going to benefit you in overall. Yes, we mature, we become fitter from the 2 years of NS. But what happens after ORD makes the two years look cute. Just look at the examples people have given here. Not all are necessarily true, but there are some good ones. At the end of the day, what comes after ORD does more damage than good. If you want to delude yourself further for whatever reasons, be my guest.

    I understand that some from the older generations might not want changes to be made because they feel it’s unfair, since they already went through all the shit. This is inevitable. I already went through NS, and if you were to ask me, I’ll say yes, it would feel unfair if NS is say, shortened, but ultimately I would still hope for amendments to be made for the future generations’ sake.

    I greatly agree with Jimmy’s points (or summary), but to a certain extent. I don’t think NS is a waste of time at all, it’s a good thing but it’s a tad too long. Most would agree that we don’t need 2 years to learn our roles.

  385. Actually we have mixed feeling, especially for those who have gone through the water dispute with Malaysia batch. We hate NS, but we see that we got no choice bec Singapore really needs defense. But we also felt that we were betrayed by the gov, by bringing in 60% of non Singaporeans to ride on our prosperity. What about our hardship with the country? We NS or NSF were not paid like regulars?! We suffers for non Singaporean to ride on us, snatch our jobs, mock at us and furthermore with gov support. Keeping mum is a form of support! For us, we won’t get anything for fighting on, cause a lot went through Liao. But really hope gov can pays NSF and NS like regular, at least die also die for something. But nowadays, with so many PRs in the army, sure got problem during war. This is really stupid moves from the policy maker!

  386. I agree that without doubt National Service is vital to our country. What irritates me is that the time consuming of 20 f**king RT session! Come on Mindef!

  387. I am female and i agree we should serve NS too along with the males. I feel NS of 2 years is too long, I feel reservist for 10 years is too long. I honestly doubt when we’re at war, the females would be spared just because we are female, and we’re physically weaker (most of the time). If we know nothing, we will be the first to get raped and killed because we are the weaker link. Don’t be lazy girls, quit whining like you deserve to be treated like princesses. Moreover, I think there are more females compared to male in Singapore (I am not too sure). I think this speaks a lot as to why females too, need to serve NS. You expect 40% of the Singapore males to defend the 55% of Singapore females (assuming 5% of females are already in NS), I don’t think that’s gonna work.

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